Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Ashley Budd: There are things that they're really good at and there's things that they're
not so good at. And figuring out what you and your team are going to hold sacred for the
humans decide, like, what are we not going to do with AI? And really explore all the other areas.
[00:00:21] Jeff Dillon: Ashley Budd is the leading voice in higher education marketing and a
champion for innovation in alumni engagement. She serves as the Senior Director of
Advancement Marketing at Cornell University where she's been reshaping digital strategy and
communications for over a decade. With a career that began at Rochester Institute of
Technology, Ashley's experience spans admissions, alumni relations and cutting edge marketing
operations. In addition to her work at Cornell, Ashley is an author, consultant and speaker. Her
new book, Mailed it offers a fresh, tactical insights into how organizations can better connect
with their audiences through thoughtful, intentional communication. Outside of Cornell, she leads
Ashley Budd Digital Strategy and Design, helping nonprofits modernize their approach to
fundraising and storytelling. She's also a past producer of Higher Ed Live, where she helped
elevate national conversations around higher education strategy. Today I'm excited to dig into
her book, her experiences, and what she sees coming next in higher ed marketing.
Well, welcome to the pod, Ashley. It's great to have you here.
[00:01:33] Ashley Budd: Thank you for inviting me. This is so fun.
[00:01:35] Jeff Dillon: So you've been at Cornell for over a decade. What changes have you
seen in how universities approach marketing and alumni engagement?
[00:01:46] Ashley Budd: Cornell's such an interesting place. I think about where Cornell is and
where other advancement teams are. And I said this a few times. Sometimes I feel like I come
from the future.
That is not necessarily because we all have all the fancy technology.
That is not true.
But there has a way and an approach to alumni engagement at Cornell that is, I think, really
keeping up with with the times.
I'll give you an example of when I joined that team and then where it is now. I think that's your
question. What have, what has been changing? I joined the Cornell Advancement team in 2013
as their third full time social media strategist for advancement. I was looking for social media
jobs. At the time, most universities did not have a social media role full time. And here's Cornell,
I'm their third person person just in advancement.
And the thinking was that we had this new region like alumni programs. Alumni engagement
programs are built by clubs in different regions and they were kind of staffed to be able to pop up
programs and you know, on the west coast or east coast. And they said the Internet is a new
region and we need to staff it. A new region like an Alumni engagement program. Isn't that cool?
So we had this team that has grown and I think the through line throughout the past 12 years
has been this digital through line.
So as we are engaging these new cohorts, this whole generation of millennials, and now Gen Z,
a lot of our alumni engagement programs had to go digital to meet them where they are, right?
[00:03:37] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, for sure.
[00:03:38] Ashley Budd: So the social media team turned into the digital innovation, which turned
into just the digital team. Innovation was like too trendy or something at the time. Kill the
buzzword. Just digital.
And then I became director of digital marketing in that time. And in 2020, we combined our
digital team with annual giving and the branding communications group.
And we now have alumni engagement and annual giving much more integrated together.
Oversee the marketing team with all the people who create things. And it's the same writers that
are writing the alumni engagement communications that are also doing this broad based
fundraising work. And it's going really well. But Cornell's like 10 years, like, I started this,
Cornell's like ahead.
And lots of other places have been adopting this model and seeing how much it makes sense.
[00:04:40] Jeff Dillon: It's great to talk to some schools that are ahead because higher ed is
somewhat slow to move, as you know. And my question is, do your colleagues feel like you're
from the future? That's what I always felt like when I was back at the university.
[00:04:54] Ashley Budd: Yeah. I think when we get frustrated with our own systems or our own
workflows or trying to figure out new partnerships, I know that's the time that I should send
people to conferences.
Because then you talk with your peers and you understand that we have a lot of the same
challenges and that we have had this digital investment. I think that's really what's carried us.
We've been able to stay kind of ahead because there was this thought back in, like, even farther
back in like 2009, that we should be doing this digital kind of alumni engagement work. And then
that kind of shaped how we structured the organization ways.
[00:05:39] Jeff Dillon: I want to hear about your book. You have a new book, fairly new now
called Mailed. It captures a fascinating mix of strategy and humanity. What inspired you to write
Mailed It?
[00:05:50] Ashley Budd: Yeah, I, as a social media person coming up through higher ed and
somebody else asked me, you know, this could have been a social media media book. Like, why
did you write an email book?
And it turns out that when I started overseeing all marketing channels, I found that the email
channel didn't get a lot of love. It's like the ugly duckling of the marketing Mix and we were just
pumping stuff out and when we put time into that email strategy we started seeing like really
awesome results. And here's a great, another great example of the evolution of this team, this
group. I started as a third full time social media strategist. We now have like half of an FTE doing
social media strategy and three full time email specialists. So that shift happened.
And my co author, Day Kibbalds, we met at Cornell. She overlapped with me for a year there.
And then after she moved on to a different university, we stayed in touch and ended up speaking
together. And she was speaking a lot about email and I was speaking a lot about email. So there
was enough for a book.
We are very complimentary. I'm more of like the geeky sciencey person and she's a very tactical,
just tells you how to do IT person.
And ChatGPT hit us. We had been talking at conferences. ChatGPT comes out and it's writing
really bad emails.
And we were just like, oh no, our inbox boxes are about to be flooded with terrible email. And it's
so clear that there's not the like good practice out there.
These models are learning bad behavior.
[00:07:38] Jeff Dillon: And I hope this email finds you well.
[00:07:41] Ashley Budd: Totally lit a fire. Yeah, exactly. The all the wrong things, the wrong
formatting, the wrong approach.
[00:07:49] Jeff Dillon: It's a starting point, everybody. It's not an ending point.
[00:07:52] Ashley Budd: Okay, yeah, well, we ended up building our own custom GPT that you can
trust to write and format good emails and that is free on our book website.
You can find the book and the GPT and our email templates.
It's emailbook co.
[00:08:10] Jeff Dillon: Okay, well I highly recommend checking out Ashley's book. Mailed it. I'm
a Testament to this. EdTech Connect has. We have about 34,000 email subscribers to our
newsletter and it's one of the most popular parts of our whole platform. Like it has a great open
rate. Like I think we're doing something right. Email is not dead.
[00:08:28] Ashley Budd: So yeah, when I first started messing with email I did it because I felt like I
had to leave Twitter in 2017 and I needed to talk to all of my people. My whole network was on
Twitter. So I started my own newsletter.
And what I like, I instantly realized was there are more people reading my thoughts in my
newsletter than ever read my blog. Back when I would publish in a blog and I was like, oh wow, I
can actually reach people this way. I can, you know, get my message out there in a really
effective way. So I had been learning that and Teaching that and Day was being brilliant at the
same time.
[00:09:09] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, I remember it was around 2005. I was following a guy named David
Marshall who founded a couple companies, one of them called Liquid Matrix. And he predicted
was when RSS was big, and he would say, you know, email's dead. RSS is gonna take over
email. It was really funny that that was. That was the take. But I want to shift a little bit to direct
mail. I want to tell you a story, a personal story, and get your thoughts on this. Like, I worked at a
school. I think I donated a hundred dollars at one point to my school for something. And my wife
got her master's degree and her PhD at the same school. So both of us have a relation here. I
worked there. I never went to school there, but I gave him some money. So we start getting
direct mail, and it's titled to Mr. And Mrs. Jeff Dillon asking her, you know, for money. And she's
like, you didn't even get your degree there. Why are they calling us? It was. I'm like, huh, I
wonder how often this is happening out there. Tell me about one surprising lesson you've
learned from diving deep into direct mail.
[00:10:11] Ashley Budd: Well, your example is a great example of why the data in direct mail is so
important.
It's how the data was modeled at one point. Right. And there's a model for your salutation in the
database. And then there's how many different ways can somebody be addressed? Not even
the couple thing. The data team that works with me, their favorite is probably the law school and
all of the different ways a lawyer or a judge can have a salutation.
Or maybe you weren't ever barred and you are just a jd. You know, it's like all of these things
that are so interesting. Like, let's get into, like, nicknames. My partner very frustrated that all of
the mail and emails that we get have his formal first name and not the name that he goes by.
Right. They should know my name.
Yeah. So the. The data part of it is really super important.
CRMs are helping. You know, that's helping. Getting those phone calls are, you know, help to try
to change stuff.
But I think, you know, direct mail is so interesting. The way I think about it, you know, as kind of
a communication nerd myself, is it can be special to receive mail. We've finally gotten the post
mail back into a place where it's delightful to receive something.
The email and direct mail have kind of flip flopped. And I think of this metaphor, like, it's not even
a metaphor. It's like a real vivid memory of my father coming home from the mailbox that was
overflowing with junk mail. And he would be so upset that he had to throw out all this mail every
day and he wanted to get off lists.
And it's exactly like what we're trying to do with junk email, right?
Trying to unsubscribe as fast as we can.
But now, you know, we've kind of settled that, like, our mailboxes are not overflowing like that
anymore. And so we can't, like, it's not as noisy of a space.
I think just like people can update their email habits to be more modern and more effective.
Direct mail still looks exactly the same it did 30 years ago.
[00:12:31] Jeff Dillon: Was it dying, though? Is direct mail, like I would ask, is it evolving? It's
evolving.
[00:12:36] Ashley Budd: You still like, there is still return on investment in direct mail fundraising.
There's no reason to stop doing direct mail fundraising.
[00:12:44] Jeff Dillon: I mean, me personally, I want to see a magazine. I want, I love, like
seeing what's happening. That fancy magazine that gets put out by the alumni associations.
Like, you know, highlighting all the stuff, that's the one thing I want to see. And then I'd probably
be more likely to.
[00:12:57] Ashley Budd: Yeah, and you can do that strategically. But a lot of these programs have
just been shipping. Like I've given $5 to other institutions that now send me their fancy shiny
alumni magazine, which is super expensive to produce in 2025. Paper and post and gas and all
of those costs. Like, this is a premium experience now and you can't send it to everybody. But
having a strategy around direct mail is really, it's a really fun space to be in because there is that
return, just like email. There's return in email. There's return and direct mail for sure.
[00:13:33] Jeff Dillon: So you write and speak and consult and lead a team. How do you
balance creative energy across all those roles?
[00:13:41] Ashley Budd: That's an interesting question.
I try to just keep it different, I guess. You know, I think I, I was walking here into my office before
jumping on the podcast and just my walk to my office, it was always a good moment to think
about what I'm about to walk into and just have those kind of free flowing thoughts for 10 to 15
minutes.
So, yeah, I definitely schedule in breaks and focus time and give myself the time to just try to
connect all those dots.
[00:14:16] Jeff Dillon: What advice would you give to university that thinks that email's enough
when it comes to fundraising communications if their audience.
[00:14:26] Ashley Budd: Is primarily asking them to get send email? And that's where they're
communicating most.
I think it's fair to give it a fair portion of your marketing mix.
You're not going to have good emails for everybody. You know, I think email programs are really
evolving and understanding that having email addresses where people aren't opening them, it's
really damaging to their sender reputation. And so they're going to have to segment to just email
the people that are live and there. And that's going to mean that there's a big chunk of that
audience that you need to reach through other channels. And social media strategy for
awareness raising and trying to get people back on your email list is really important.
There's so much that you can do with direct mail from awareness raising, cultivation,
stewardship, like we were talking about. It's like it can be a special channel. So how do you save
it for the parts of your campaign that you want to feel a little bit special?
[00:15:31] Jeff Dillon: Yeah. You know, you've been described, you're known for being at the
forefront of digital innovation and advancement. And I have this loosely formed idea out there
that with AI now we could do things like, you know, AI could probably surface giving
opportunities. Like let's say the university has these few ways we ask for money. Maybe there's
events, there's the standard low level contribution. There's like someone wants to put a name on
a building, but I don't, this is not my space. So I know there's a range of things, but how many
types of giving channels might there be that we haven't exposed yet? And since we know, you
know, your list of your prospects that you're talking to, you know, how much money may they
have, where they live, what their degree was, all this stuff we know could AI is there AI that
could like say, hey, this person would be perfect for this, you know, have. Is anyone doing. Oh
yeah, doing that. That exists.
[00:16:22] Ashley Budd: Okay, that exists. Yeah, that's definitely a thing. I think the robots are
pretty good at research, they're pretty good at simplifying things, trying to connect the dots.
For any donor. Right. At any level, people are generous. Like giving is a feel good experience
and to get somebody to that feel good place, you have to connect the dots for them. Right. And
we can take really complex concepts and like world changing things that we're working on that
are really hard to explain and you know, take that vast knowledge and simplify it, we can turn it
into a podcast.
We can do all sorts of, we can do all sorts of things with that information. Right. So it's. Yeah, it's
exciting. It's amazing to, you know, get the help from the robots. I think there are things that
they're really good at and there's things that they're not so good at. And figuring out what you
and your team are going to hold sacred for the humans decide, like, what are we not going to do
with AI and really explore all the other areas.
Yeah, that's. I think it's a fun time to play around.
[00:17:36] Jeff Dillon: Yeah. I almost feel like, tell me if this makes any sense at all, but you've
been doing this for so long. You're respected. What you say people are probably like, oh, you
know, Ashley says we should do this. Maybe you have probably have more weight on campus if
you were new coming into a role. You have these ideas. I feel like you really need that champion
that can push things through higher ed because there's so many people that can kill an idea or
think you're crazy. You know, how does the people that are just coming into this and maybe
haven't their things are kind of like, let's throw this up to the wall, see if it sticks. But I know this
other school did it, you know, that might not have the experience and credibility, but have great
ideas. How do you push things through to make them happen?
[00:18:16] Ashley Budd: Yeah, sure, it helps to be able to point to other examples. I love sharing
what we do and I have given the advice like, just tell them that we're doing it.
Maybe that will help convince people. But I actually have a strategy for this exact thing, like in a
higher ed conference room where trying to make your case.
And it is lifted from my brilliant co author, D. Kibbles. She speaks about the arts and the art and
science of collaboration. And really what it is, is how to get your idea taken seriously.
And what you need, yes, you need somebody in the room who is going to say like, oh yes,
Ashley, whatever you say is right and I will always have your back.
But you also need to bring into the room the person who is like, no matter what you say, you're
wrong and I hate all of your ideas. That person has to be there.
And then you need some neutral people that could go either way. So that is the group that you
have to present your idea to. And then what you bring to this group is the worst case scenario
out of whatever. You know, if you believe we should change something, it's probably because
something else is going wrong. So you want to show them, you know, show them data, show
them evidence, show them the worst case scenario and then just the let the group come to the
same conclusion that you have, and you'll have the people that are like, this is right, and they'll
have the people that this is wrong. And then it's those neutral people that they'll just fight it out
amongst themselves. But there's a way to move things forward in higher ed if you have the
evidence. Like, bring your evidence. You don't need confidence if you can show evidence of
what. What you're trying to do.
[00:19:51] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, I'm. Well, I'm well with you there. Let's talk segmentation.
How deep can should universities go when they're personalizing their outreach? Is there a point
where it's creepy or what's. What's the balance?
[00:20:06] Ashley Budd: Yeah, if it feels creepy, it probably is. It's like, not a scientific thing, really.
So especially in email. I'm just going to presume that most of your communication is going out
through email and you're trying to personalize it for people. The most effective strategy in email
communication is not individualized personalization.
It is relevance.
So you want to be, like, as relevant as you can for the biggest population so that you don't have
to have a thousand individual segments or 30,000 individual segments that you are trying to be
super relevant. So if at any point in your email you're saying something like, if this applies to you,
no, we have to segment there. You absolutely have to segment if you have a different message
for people.
But that's where, like, a really friendly, tone, inclusive language goes a long way. Using the word
you and your. So it sounds like it's just you.
Those simple writing habits are what's going to speak to most of your audience. I had one
nonprofit that I was working with that brought me in because they had 77 email segments and
we got it down to seven.
So, like, that's more rational. In our annual giving program, we started with like, 90 different
segments.
That's too many. We've gone too far.
And yeah, and then the data shows, like, even if you can do that hyper personalization, if you've
got dynamic content for individuals, it really doesn't make that much of a difference. But the
relevancy of, like, am I getting this at the right time? Like, spend more time figuring out how to
get it delivered at the right time of day with the right subject line than trying to make it
personalized, that's going to go much farther.
[00:21:51] Jeff Dillon: Well, there's a tip. There's some gold right there that makes sense.
You've run operations and strategy. Which one Energizes you more and why.
[00:22:01] Ashley Budd: I love process stuff and being able to repeat things and putting things in
frameworks. So it's probably that. It's like I'm a very. I describe myself as a very good list maker.
That is what I pride myself in.
So I would pick a project management job over being the one to write the strategy and set the
goals. I rather make it happen. Yeah.
[00:22:24] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, I can see that. It's almost an overlap. Like, if you're creating a
process, it's almost a strategic. Strategic operation.
[00:22:31] Ashley Budd: Oh, there's. Yeah, there's so much stress. So where I like strategy is in
getting partners to do what I need them to do. That takes a lot of, like, political strategy. But I
don't need to sit and, like, figure out the goals and do predictive models and you know that I lead
to other brainy people.
[00:22:52] Jeff Dillon: You've spent time at RIT and Cornell. How have those environments
shaped your approach to storytelling?
[00:23:02] Ashley Budd: I spent the first six years of my higher ed career at my alma mater, rit, in
enrollment, and I was a road warrior as admissions counselor.
I also did the newsletter. I redesigned the website. It was still had that digital thing happening
there. But when I decided to leave and take the role in advancement, I thought I was going to the
dark side. I was like, I have just been opening the doors of higher education to the youth, and
now I'm going to go and ask people for money.
Like, this is not.
But I. I thought it was like a stop on my journey, and then I would end up somewhere in, like, a
central communications office.
And then I learned what they do there, and I'm never going there. It's not gonna happen.
So my very first summer on the job at Cornell, they sent me to the summer institutes for
fundraising, and I learned this is just storytelling. I was like, I. That is what I have been doing. I
have been telling the story of our institution and convincing people that this is a good fit for them.
Now I have to tell the story of the institution and convince people that this is a good fit for them
financially. Right. Like, it's still. And it was still a financial decision. So it was so similar.
And just, you know, I think if anybody can find their own personal connection with the
organization they're working for, like, that makes the job so fulfilling. And you can be really
authentic in your storytelling when you have connection to.
[00:24:39] Jeff Dillon: We have that passion.
[00:24:40] Ashley Budd: Yeah.
[00:24:40] Jeff Dillon: What's a recent campaign or project you're especially proud of?
[00:24:44] Ashley Budd: Oh, my goodness.
We launched in less than two weeks in very few business days. An advocacy campaign for
Cornell University.
We are one of many elite universities under threat right now. Our business model is diverse, and
every single piece of it is under attack.
And once we got the green light from the number one in charge that this advocacy campaign
could happen, we, like, sprinted and got it out before Cornell reunions.
And we had stickers and we had, you know, sandwich boards with QR codes and like, the whole
purpose of the advocacy campaign is to get alumni engaged and speaking on behalf of Cornell
to share good information when they see misinformation, to write op eds to call congresspeople.
And we have over 3,000 alumni signed up right now.
[00:25:54] Jeff Dillon: Wow, that's awesome.
[00:25:55] Ashley Budd: It launched at the beginning of the month, so we're ramping up. We're
talking about what we're going to do around back to school time. And this is when you have
major challenges. You can be really bold in your messaging and you can rally support. And it's
not the first time we've done something like, you know, unprecedented.
But we're like, we know how to stand up these kinds of emergency campaigns at this point.
But, yeah, that feels like a good one right now.
[00:26:26] Jeff Dillon: I love to see all the Ivies and top tier institutions kind of banding together.
I know Harvard is kind of in the crosshairs and other schools, too, but one of the assets we have
is drawing global talent to our country that develops all these things.
At least we're aware of this and we're trying to do something.
[00:26:50] Ashley Budd: Yeah. Won't go down without a fight.
[00:26:52] Jeff Dillon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have one last question for you, Ashley. If you had a
magic wand to fix one thing about how colleges market, what would that be?
[00:27:00] Ashley Budd: I thought about this question before.
I think. I think it's got to be something about their tool set. And I don't know if that's, like, the
sexiest answer, but I think most teams are so creative. I don't need to touch anything with that.
We just need to enable these teams with the tools that they need. And the tools aren't
necessarily like the tech stack, although sometimes it definitely is.
But it's like the playbook of how, like, what does this approval workflow look like? How do I get
people to agree on these ideas? How do I get them to understand that if they want the video
done, I want time to pick the best day and, you know, like, all of those details.
So I would love to just wave my magic wand and give everybody those, like, project playbooks
that they can just run with. And then I think I also need to like hypnotize all their partners into
agreeing with the timelines because that is also impossible.
[00:28:05] Jeff Dillon: We would all love that. Thanks Ashley. Well, it was really great to have
you on and I'll put links to all the resources we mentioned here in the show notes including
mailed it and Ashley's website. And thanks again Ashley. It's great talking to you.
[00:28:19] Ashley Budd: Thanks Jeff. It's been so much fun.
[00:28:22] Jeff Dillon: As we wrap up this episode, remember, EdTech Connect is your trusted
companion on your journey to enhance education through technology.
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