Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So that's why now everyone's talking about composable DXPs. Right? And that's both the idea that it's not one vendor providing all the functionality from CRM to analytics to personalization to content to digital asset management. Sort of like one suite to rule them all. It's also increasingly, and this is where we come into play, the notion that you're going to need to give different flavors of this to different stakeholders in your organization.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Welcome to the EdTechConnect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon, and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education. We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators and solution providers who are transforming the learning landscape. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in.
Today I have Josh Koenig, co founder and Chief Strategy Officer at Pantheon. He spent over two decades building and shaping the Internet. His journey began in the world of political campaigns where he honed his skills in online engagement, web development, notably working on Dean Space, a platform for Howard Dean's 2004 presidential campaign. Transitioning from political activism to the tech world, Josh Co founded Chapter 3 in 2006, a company committed to achieving online success through a focus on people, practices and effective operations. This philosophy is evident in his work at Pantheon, a web ops platform designed to empower website teams to deliver exceptional digital experiences. As Pantheon's product leader for the company's first decade, Josh helped translate web team best practices earned from years of consulting experience into a self service online platform that's used daily by tens of thousands of professionals. Today, as Chief Strategy Officer, he helps steer the direction of the company, informed by industry trends and the need of Pantheon's many customers and partners. So welcome Josh.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Hey, great to be here. Thanks, Jeff.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: You know, and if you're in the open source world and you haven't heard of Pantheon, I'm not sure what you're doing because you know, these guys are huge if you're using WordPress and you know, I'm really excited to have Josh on the show. So you have quite an interesting background. Can you talk a little bit about your founder's journey? I know you have co founders, but what was your journey at Pantheon and how higher ed became one of your biggest, if not biggest, vertical?
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been exciting and, you know, a real Privilege to be on this ride. You know, as you mentioned, we had a consultancy and agency called Chapter three, still going strong in San Francisco. And you know, over the course of those first four or five years of running that agency, we worked on, you know, larger and larger projects. And when you get to a place where you're, you're really working with a web team, you know, it's not just an individual web developer or one sort of jack of all trades and you're, you're doing a project that requires lots of people to collaborate. The way in which you're doing that collaborative work really, really matters. Like, if it's good and it's smooth and everything's working well, then you can move really fast. But if it's not, it just kind of can be a recipe for projects to go off the rails. And so, you know, part one of the journey was really realizing that we had kind of developed a pretty good recipe for how to solve that problem. But you know, we were doing it as consulting, so it was like fairly expensive and it took a long time because we're kind of doing it bespoke for each customer. But what we saw was while the web projects themselves were really different, the process we were using to go about doing them was just converging, right? It wasn't changing that much from, from one client to the next. And then we sort of just had this wild idea that like, hey, look, we're here in San Francisco. Silicon Valley is just down the road. I think there's a lot of people that could use what we've got in the open source community and if we could turn it into a product rather than a service that you have to hire us to build for you, that might work. And you know, 14 years later, here we are. And it was really just based on that experience that we had in consulting. And you know, we also got a lot of input and benefit from our peers in this space as well. And so that was the first step and then the second step that takes us into higher ed is, is, is really interesting. We were trying to promote ourselves very early. You know, I think this was like a one, maybe a little bit less than. No, a little bit more than one year into having started the company and we were doing an open source developer event on Berkeley's campus. It was called Bay Area Drupal Camp or Bad Camp. It was a pretty great event and we helped organize it and my co founder and cto, David Strauss and I gave a talk sort of explaining the guts of what we were doing and you know, we got a lot of developers in the room and people asking questions and it was an exciting thing.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: What year was that?
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was 2012. So this was over the weekend because it's an open source developer camp. It's like people are doing this on their own time time because they're passionate about it. But the following, I think Monday or Tuesday, this guy showed up at our office, which was in, you know, downtown San Francisco. We had a little tiny office. There were like 15 of us at the time. And it's Patrick McGrath, who is deputy CIO at Berkeley. And one of his responsibilities was content management. And he came and he said, I was in the audience for your talk. I need you to give me pantheon for 500 websites. And we were like, yes, sir.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Say yes and figure it out later.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: That's right. Right. Well, you know, it's classic startup move, but it worked out really well for us because they had been trying to do the same sort of thing for themselves for a long time and just, it's hard, it's actually not easy stuff. And he sort of realized that if our product did what we said it would do and it could work at their scale for the breadth that they have, it would really solve their problems. And so we got to partner with them really closely on some of the details and fine tuning of how it is. We delivered Pantheon not just for one web team working on one client project at a time, which is kind of where we started our mental model, but like for a campus.
And as a result of that, we have this really, really great governance approach to how to manage lots of open source distributions across the campus. We have a really interesting way for students or faculty to come in and automatically get added into the umbrella organization. All these little things that really help with adoption in higher ed. And that's just served us incredibly well in the 1112 years since then. And it's why we have such a great partnership with so many big institutions.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: So back in the day, 10 plus years ago, when you were discovering this at Berkeley, this big implementation was a great use case. Those schools that you brought in early, were they coming from their own do it yourself kind of situation where they couldn't manage their own WordPress very well, was that the situation at these bigger schools?
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Yes. And this is still predominantly the case. Right. There's a lot of do it yourself and for good reason. Right. There's a long history. The space of higher education was one of the first places where the Internet really started to matter in Fact, educational institutions created much of the backbone of the Internet before there was even a World Wide Web. And they were early adopters of the Web themselves, which is kind of a blessing and a curse because it means that you've got early adoption and like you've got a lot of history and a lot of. But it also means you have a lot of legacy, you have a lot of technical debt because you've been doing it longer than other groups. You have sort of more of this legacy investment. And the truth is that if you were trying to do the web in the 90s or most of the 2000s, you would do it yourself. You would say, I got to get some infrastructure, I've got to install some software, I've got to set this up and manage it. And that's what they were all doing. And so our model is, you know, sort of moves up the stack to delivering it a platform as a service. And that is, it's a great benefit to the organizations that adopt it, but it does mean changing the way they approach providing this service on campus.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: You know what's funny is I think back 10 plus years ago in this timeframe you're talking about, and one of the factors that would maybe keep someone from moving to a pantheon would be, would be security. Because back in the day you would say, we can't do that. We have to stay secure here. And now that's completely flipped. You know, it's a race to the cloud. I think that's. Was that an issue back then?
[00:08:53] Speaker A: You know, we had to do a lot of work to establish our credibility early on. I mean, certainly both from a security standpoint and also like, honestly, you know, for an institution to even do business with a company that was as small as we were on something that's this important, there was a lot of convincing to do. But you know, we were able to, to get through those hurdles. And you're absolutely right that the mental model around security has done something of a 180, certainly in my career from security means I have to control and hold all of it really tightly to realizing that, holy cow, there's so much surface area to manage. I actually need to find partners that take that off my plate that I can trust. Right. And that's kind of one of the ways that we come in again for that larger scale use case. Because the conventional ways that most organizations approach solving that problem, and I mean that both internally and by vendors, is by kind of imposing a monolithic model because it's easier, right. If it's something that works one way all the time. It's easier to make it secure. The problem is that that doesn't map well to what the needs are actually for a higher education institution. There's lots of stakehold. Many of them need mostly the same stuff, but there are lots of degrees of difference in there that matter a lot. And there are lots of outliers that are also important that you can't just say no to. And so our approach to letting people have a lot of stuff be held in common and run efficiently, but also let people have more control over their own destiny or have their own central IT and edge IT both have a role to play. Or, you know, independent groups, you got a Sony gets a grant, they want to hire a digital agency to do something ambitious, you can say yes to that. That ability to have a more flexible but still credible governance model is, is really one of the things that we do differently. And I credit a lot of that to that early experience we had with the folks at cal.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: And WordPress is driving the majority of higher ed websites these days. I think Drupal is right behind there. And then there's like the line trap. You probably have the numbers, but it is incredible to see that, like how many schools are on WordPress.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of natural affinity, you know, in the same way that educational institutions hand in a lot of the early Internet, there's also a ton of affinity with open source, you know, as a result of that. And so you see Drupal had a. They're probably close to 50, 50 now. Drupal had, you know, early on a kind of a lead because it was a full content management system 10 years ago or even 15 years ago and sort of like the open Source Leader. Whereas WordPress, I think over the past 10 years has really matured into being a complete website tool from its roots as a blogging platform. Right now obviously you can run full websites in WordPress. And people are finding in higher ed and in the commercial ecosystem, even in big enterprise companies, that the value proposition of WordPress being like really easy for the content teams to use makes it really appealing. Because a lot of times, you know, the whole idea is you don't want to have to have IT people doing web stuff on a day to day basis. You want to hand that over to the department or the school and they have administrative staff who know how to use computers, but they're not web specialists. And so you kind of need to hit the usability bar of like Gmail and then they can run and do their own thing, but if it's like a complex specialist tool, it's harder for them to use. That's why WordPress is just, you know, gaining traction all over the place.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: So I have a scenario to run by you that this is a, a former client of mine I talked to, I would call them an IV level institution. Huge. They had every CMS. You know, these big schools have Drupal over here, WordPress over here. They have Adobe here. Like they had everything.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: And, and they, they had a donor come to them and say, hey, we want to give you $50 million to sponsor this school, but we need our name tied to that school wherever, wherever it lives. They were so disparate. They were freaking out. We're not going to be able to fulfill this requirement because our, our name's everywhere and all these different CMSs. Yeah. So in comes, right. Everyone's like, okay, which DXP? But they had DXPs layered on top of DXPs. And this is still, like you said, this is still so common. The bigger the school I've seen all the R1s and IVs are just, it's exponentially harder at that level. How does Pantheon handle that scenario? Do you have, do you consider it a DXP and you can consolidate those together for this type of communications problem?
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think the category of DXP is like, get an analyst off the record and they'll admit this. It's the vaguest, one of the vaguest software categories that exists. And the truth is that a lot of the originators in that space, they're very monolithic solutions in terms of, like, you get one instance of this software. So it works one way for everyone who uses it. And that's not a good fit for. It's not a good fit for a lot of large organizations, or at least it can't possibly fulfill the dream of everyone's going to use this and it's all going to work the same way. That sounds great to someone who's high up in an organization, but on the ground it just doesn't work. So that's why now everyone's talking about composable DXPs. Right. And that's both the idea that it's not one vendor providing all the functionality from CRM to analytics to personalization to content to digital asset management, like, you know, sort of like one, one suite to rule them all. It's also increasingly, and this is where we come in to play the notion that you're going to need to give different flavors of this to different stakeholders in your organization. And that's something that we do, we do really well. So both being a multi CMS platform, so both WordPress and Drupal run on Pantheon. But even within those cases, like I often tell people, you know, so you say you, you're standardizing or standardized on WordPress that might not be as meaningful as you think because it's like humans and toads have 80% of the same DNA. And that's what being standardized on WordPress just on its own means. Like you really need to do to get the value of open source as an institution is figure out what's your distribution of this software. And then this is where it gets back to your question. That then includes common assets, common design assets, common functional assets that are managed at a global level. And then that gives you the governance over that stuff. So if you need to add a name or change a footer or whatever, you can do that and roll it out across campus. And it also gives you great efficiency because you're maintaining some critical stuff in one place and getting it reused everywhere. And it ties into security because you can do things like say, guess what? Anybody who's using WordPress at this institution is logging in through our single sign on portal, for example. We're making sure that, you know, we're keeping up with our guidelines around accessibility, for example. Like those are things you can then do as a global standard while still permitting individual sites to kind of do their own thing when and where it's necessary.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. So going back to your, your roots a little bit, reflecting on your journey from political campaigns to leading a major web development platform, what are some of the significant lessons you've learned and experiences that have maybe shaped your leadership style?
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Well, the first thing that I tell this is more of a startup yarn, but the first thing I tell everybody when I meet them in, you know, who's like also a founder or they're thinking about starting a company and they ask about the experience. I will tell them that if you have the opportunity, if you're this type of person, you have this type of mindset and you have the opportunity and like, you know, the passion is there for you to ever work in technology on an active political campaign. It is a singular experience that makes running a startup look like kindergarten. Like people talk about startups as being high pressure, high intensity environments like, okay, go try to take over the country with a deadline that doesn't move and a like very clear, you win or you die outcome, right. Those stakes and pressures are exponentially higher than, you know, trying to. I mean, again, like, startup environments are hectic and chaotic and there's lots of stuff going on, but, like, it's next level. It doesn't. It's next level. And so I think, like, you know, one of the things that I had to learn early on was honestly, like, tempering or measuring the level of intensity that you bring to something. And I mean, I'm also like, just a, you know, I'm a person who operates. You know, we actually talk about this in the company. Like one of our values is passion. Because, you know, if you want to do the best work possible, and I want me and all my team to do the best work of our careers, you got to really put your heart into it to do your best work. And then sometimes that comes with, you know, everything comes with potential downsides. And so, like, one of the journeys that I've been on as a leader, you know, since, you know, starting this company in my late 20s, early 30s, is really learning how to like, channel that and use it appropriately versus being like a shouty person in a meeting. So, you know, that that's one thing. And the other thing that I've really learned is how important it is to take the time to bring people along when you have a vision, right? So, like, if you want to do something really innovative, you're going to be ahead of where other people are thinking and it's going to seem obvious to you, but it's not to them. And. And there's a way, and I was certainly guilty of this, have been, and I've seen other people do it too, where that can turn into a kind of arrogance, where it's like, I see things that other people don't. And like, that gives me an edge. And that's true. But if you don't bridge the gap between your vision and their reality, you're going to run into walls and blockers all over the place.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: There's a skill in bringing people along, right?
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Yes. And it's like, it's real work and you have to take it really seriously. But when you do, like, that was to me, kind of like a big light bulb moment when I like, you know, I used to have moments where I would felt like I was dragging people along behind me, you know, because I wanted to get started fast versus, like taking a little bit more time. Not forever, still urgency, we still got to get moving, but like, being able to feel like we're all marching together like that's just such a better feeling like being a part of a team that really knows what they're doing versus, you know, kind of like ahead of the pack.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: That's great advice for a young or new startup founder. Well, you've described Pantheon's origin as a, as productization of consulting expertise, addressing gaps in web development and collaboration, scalability, security. Can you elaborate on that process? That's a little bit of news to me. I like, I haven't thought of it that way. Tell me more about how you do that.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So there were really like when we were starting that there's two.
Sometimes people think about these as disconnected problems and I think part of our magic was we thought of them as one connected problem. But there are these two things that you really have to do if you're going to run, build and run serious projects using these open source tools as the core. Right. One, you need to run it somewhere. It's got to be on the Internet. So there's that infrastructure component that you can do on your own. You can do it with your own literal on prem stuff. You can do it with a public cloud partner. You can get that from a lot of vendors, including us. And so at the time that we got started, the recipes for success with running high performance, scalable and secure instances of open source web technology, it wasn't super arcane, but it was definitely a specialized skill set. And so that was part of our consulting expertise. And so that's part of what we've productized. And I'd say that's like something that you have to provide because if you're not running the website, nothing else, like it doesn't matter, like it's a baseline value you have to deliver. I'd say I think we're the best dang web hosting in the world. But if that's true, it's only by a few inches because there's lots of other people that do that really well too. What we do that's different was we solved the other problem, which is okay, so if you have a live running instance of your open source web tool, how do you work on the next change that you want to make to it? And there's really good best practices out there that are established in the broader field of DevOps that are often not applied to, ironically not applied to websites. And so that's what we call web ops because it's like DevOps. And then you got to think about content a little bit too. There's some nuances in there. So we call it Web ops, because you got to think about the broader team that's going to be involved in this. And what happens is, in a world where you only solve the hosting question, you get your website live and then you just sort of kind of live with it as it is until you redo it in a big way again. And that is the old school model. That's how a lot of the dxps work and so forth. It's just not very well tuned to the needs of organizations today because you can't wait years to do refreshes to the user experience to add or adjust functionality. Like, your website isn't just for posting new pages. You need to evolve the experience, and that means you need a workflow to make more substantive changes. And that was the other thing that we did as part of our consulting engagements, because it was really like a hard necessity. Because what ends up happening if you don't have a good workflow for iterating on the website, the underlying functionality and design of it, what you end up with is, your project deadline's coming up, you're kind of scrambling. You try to add another team member to speed things up, but then people start stepping on each other's toes. It slows things down. You might have issues with the launch, even because you're trying to change things at the last minute. And then you very often. And this is one of the things that convinced us to turn this into a product. We saw peers ending up in this, like, boxed into this corner where they got a website live. It was mostly what they had talked about with their client, but not everything. And they just couldn't change it. Like it was too risky to introduce additional changes after the launch. And so they just ended up in this very unsatisfying space with people. And our perspective was you should launch early and keep improving. And that requires you to solve both of these problems together. And that was, you know, again, we were doing that. We were like two months of consulting for us to go in and, like, figure out how to set this stuff up and, like, you know, spin up all the necessary infrastructure and talk with the clients about their workflow. And that was really expensive. But we basically standardize it down to something that's fully automated and you can sign up and use it for free, like in real time right now. And so that's, you know, one of the things I'm very passionate about is our ability to propel the professional standards around this type of work and elevate them so that people have, you know, can do better Work, be less stressed, and ultimately fulfill their goals more effectively. Like, we had a customer event. It was a couple years ago, but we had the folks from. I think it was one of the Cal Poly schools. I think it was like San Luis Obispo. And they were like, you know, talking on stage about the before and after. And they're like, before when we wanted to do releases for the website for the CMS to improve something, Kevin would have to spend all day Sunday in the office getting that release out because that was the only way that we could do it that was like, tolerable from a risk standpoint. And like, the unofficial motto of Pantheon was like, let's get Kevin his weekends back. And that just warms my heart, you.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Know, this makes me want to ask this question is I'm sure there's some smaller schools that maybe they're okay on their little WordPress instance and they're doing okay. But, like, as you go up the chain of the bigger schools are so complex. Have you run into a school that they're maybe on WordPress or Drupal and they're doing just fine. They're like, oh, yeah, we're good. Maybe they think they are and they're not. Because I know one of your biggest clients that they have so much technical expertise and they need you. Like, I just surprised if anyone can even handle this these days. Is that pretty rare to say, like, oh, yeah, you got it covered.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: I will say there are definitely schools that we've encountered, and I don't know what I don't know about the people we've never talked to. Right? But there are schools that we've encountered where they really made a smart and significant investment in doing this themselves. And they were doing pretty well. And the problem that they were having is just the cost of doing that well manually is really high. Like, you are you. That means you are dedicating some of your most skilled technical resources to this case, which means they're not. There's other stuff they're not doing. And so in, like, there are places where, like, you know, they're. They're getting by just fine. They're actually doing pretty well, all things considered, but with the available capacities they have, it's not the most optimal use of their talent. That's really the story in those cases. They don't have a burning platform. Their stakeholders are pretty happy, but they're just way behind on their to do list because it's a lot of work. If you haven't built software to automate all of this stuff, even if you've got some scripts here and there, it's still a lot. And so that's kind of, you know, we 2 to 4x the productivity of the teams that adopt Pantheon typically. And that's a big unlock. It's potentially an even bigger value for those folks where they have that much upside to gain.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Just do a TCO analysis and they'll probably figure out, oh yeah, we could be saving some money. Well, looking ahead, what are your predictions for the future of web ops and higher ed? How do you see Pantheon shaping that landscape?
[00:26:38] Speaker A: Well, so certainly the web is exciting in that it's always a moving target and we've seen.
I'll just talk the recent past and then talk about the future. We've seen more and more institutions becoming more and more in tuned with their use of the web to engage both prospective students and alumni as like a really mission critical use case. So it's not just serving the current constituents and stakeholders on campus, but like, you know, where are kids researching schools, they're doing it online. And if you have an engaged alumni community that is going to be in part a digital experience for every graduating class, you know, going back several years. But this is now becoming really the norm. And so, you know, that's something that I think that trend is only going to continue. I think that there's a lot of work still to be done and we're starting to dip our toe in this water around like I was saying before, making it easier for the less technical administrative staff to do more and more on their own. And you know, we're really interested in figuring out how to like further embrace the content Personas. Like we're doing some really interesting work right now to integrate Google Docs and Google Workspaces with web projects. And that's like something a lot of, you know, a lot of universities have adopted Google Workspaces as the kind of the online productivity suite. And so in a world where people don't actually draft their content in WordPress, they're copying and pasting it from somewhere else. Right. That could be much more efficient. We could give, you know, better visibility into the content creation process if we were helping bridge that gap, et cetera, I think that they're, you know, trend wise, yeah, it's going to be thinking more about honestly pulling in existing best practices from digital marketing around the user experience. If you imagine the journey of a student as more like a customer life cycle, from prospect to current user to alumni promoter, potential donor, there are a lot of things that can be applied from the commercial sector around how to make that a better experience in the digital realm, which is increasingly important. That's going to be a trend that it's already happening, but it's just going to continue to accelerate and then I think we're going to continue to see the, how that web stuff gets built get more, it should just keep getting better for the end users who, who are, you know, hands on keyboard, trying to put more stuff out there. Like there's been a lot of progress over the past 10 years, but it's, it's going to continue to get better for those folks.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Well that, it makes a lot of sense to me and I would just wrap it up with asking you if you have any advice or for I would say aspiring developers that are in higher ed or even web teams that are struggling and they know like we're on these CMSs that are 10, 15 years old and a lot of schools know they need to make a leap, but maybe it's hard to convince their leadership or they're struggling with like what am I going to do if I, am I going to work myself out of a job? What advice do you give to the struggling institutions or developers that want to take the next step?
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's always a good idea to make space and hopefully you can do it in the context of your working hours to try pure R and D, do a little innovation project, do a little side hustle thing, see if there's a chance to do even just an internal proof of concept around emerging web technologies that you think are exciting just to keep your skills fresh. I think there are, I mean there's a lot of interest and also anxiety around the role that our AI is playing in, in this world and in web development. And I would say like there's definitely value in figuring out how to like get rid of annoying grunt work with AI. Like that is a real use case that like it's actually not going to, I don't think AI is going to put people out of a job, but it should take some like again like the sort of low you have to get these tasks done, but they're fairly low complexity and they require a certain amount of effort. It's going to not eliminate all those, but just make it much easier. Think of it as like you can have an artificial intern and give tasks to that and then when you do things like that, you have to check their work. And I would also say like the key unlock that I've seen inside of these institutions is often Building the connections within the school community to realize that you have common problems. And then what you can do is pool resources to try to solve things in a way that actually gets you much further.
You know, it's really ironic. Like, we will do this. Like, okay, cool, we're doing well on this campus. Now let's go do a visit, and we're going to get all of our stakeholders together for a pizza party. And, like, it's the first time these people have talked in years, but then they start a mailing list afterwards and there's a users group or something like that. And, like, they are doing so much better together, even though they're in different campuses or in different schools or different buildings when they're sharing. Because if you're a web team in the med school versus the law school, you have very similar challenges as web teams. And so, like, you can be, at a minimum, providing camaraderie and moral support.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's. That's a good one. Collaboration. Well, if you're looking to level up your cms, like, give Pantheon a look, they are legit. They're killing it. So thanks, Josh. Great having you on the show. And we'll have Josh's info in the show notes.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Thanks so much, Jeff. It was a pleasure.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: All right, bye. Bye. Bye.
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