Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Guest: That gives us the ability now to get away from targeting by channel and we can start targeting and thinking about it by audience so we can load in behavioral, contextual, geographic targeting, demographic targeting, load in all those things and then the AI that is built into the platform on the back end will actually go out and find people, find the people that we're targeting and where they're watching TV.
[00:00:28] Host: Welcome to the EdTechConnect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education. We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators and solution providers who are transforming the learning landscape. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in.
Jennifer Loncar brings almost two decades of expertise in higher education. Having worked in various roles focused on strategic enrollment and marketing. For over 13 years, she worked for Carnegie and was instrumental in bringing digital marketing to higher education. Her deep understanding of the challenges and opportunities within the sector has made her a sought after leader in developing innovative solutions for enrollment and student engagement. Driven by a passion for enhancing the student experience and optimizing recruitment strategies, Jennifer co founded Ambio Edu. This venture reflects her commitment to transforming higher education marketing through advanced technologies including performance TV and integrated digital solutions. Ambio Edu, under her leadership, harnesses cutting edge tools to help universities connect with prospective students more effectively and efficiently setting new standards in the field.
Well, welcome to the show, Jennifer. I'm so happy to have you today.
[00:02:08] Guest: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
[00:02:11] Host: So let's start by talking about the story. How did you get to where you are launching Ambio Edu?
[00:02:18] Guest: So I have been in this higher ed space for 17 years, about 17 years. And I was with Carnegie for quite a long time, about almost 14 of those years left there, went to another company for a little while and while I was at the other company, one of my business partners who I've known for a really long time approached me and he's in the media space and has been kind of on the back end of higher ed marketing. And he approached me and said, I, you know, I want to talk to you about something cool that we've been doing outside of higher education and it's streaming basically. And I want to talk to you about how streaming is growing. I call it the real world. Outside of higher ed. And so we talked about it. Talked about it. And the more we started to get into it, the more I was like, we need to do this. I need to take this to higher education. And because we've been doing streaming, you know, we're always kind of behind the times on everything that we do in marketing. You know, the real world happens. Higher ed happens 100 steps later.
[00:03:15] Host: What year was that conversation?
[00:03:17] Guest: Well, he was after me for like a good year and a half before I actually committed to taking the leap and doing this by myself. So that started, I think in 2022 and I started Ambo in October of 2023. Is that right? Yeah, because this is 2025, so it's going to be two years in October already. Man, time flies. And you know, we've been doing streaming in higher education, but it's always been an afterthought in marketing campaigns. Nobody's really put focus into it. And we are in the place where digital marketing was back in like the early 2000 and tens and that it was exploding outside of higher education. We were apprehensive. But now obviously the majority of budgets go to digital marketing. So I really see that this is where this is going, especially because we have the ability to measure enrollment attribution on the back end. So that was it. It took me about a good year and a half to, you know, starting your own business is like taking a leap and jumping off of a cliff with your eyes closed start. So it took me a while to work up the courage to do it.
[00:04:21] Host: So why don't you give the listeners the overview of your mission and what you're doing? Because it is different than any company I've heard of in the edtech.
[00:04:30] Guest: Yeah. So we are full bore forward with streaming. So as I mentioned, outside of higher education, most marketers are moving a huge portion of their budgets to streaming. So connected TV ottoman. And for those of you listening who don't know what that is, OTT is really any device that can stream content over the Internet. Streaming content. So like think about like Hulu or Amazon prime or Netflix, anything like that. And CTV is the same thing, only it's the actual TV on the wall in your living room that acts as basically just another device, digital device in your household. So it's connected to, you know, once you plug your TV in, now it asks you to connect to the Internet. And as soon as you do that, it is now connected to all devices in your home, which then has basically turned your TV into a mini computer. If you will. And we have the same targeting and optimizing capabilities now with streaming that we would with digital marketing. So that's what we're doing for colleges and universities is we're using that same kind of technology that we would use in digital marketing. Only now we're able to create beautiful 15, 30 second commercials that are unskippable. That's a big thing too is that people are watching in the comfort of their home, they're relaxed. A commercial comes up, the only way they can get out of it is turning the channel or turning the tv. And we are actually measuring all the way through what people are doing after they see the commercial. So where are they going? You're going to your website and what pages are they looking at and what are they doing after they're exposed? And then we measure enrollment all the way through down to the actual student. So I can say Jeff Dillon was, we know for certain was exposed to this commercial, went to your site, applied.
[00:06:13] Host: So I'm trying to get my head around this. I'm a different generation here. And you got me when you said like it's streaming on, you know, all these devices because my college age kids are using their phones.
[00:06:27] Guest: Yeah.
[00:06:28] Host: Are we talking about big network advertising or is it social media as well? Or is this more of the shows longer form?
[00:06:36] Guest: Well, it's actually both if you think about it. So streaming, the streaming piece of it is shows. Right. So you're, you know, you're binge watching the Last of Us on HBO Max and you get a commercial break. They're usually pods of three commercials, 30 seconds each, minute and a half. Get a little timer that counts down in the corner. You can't skip it. So you've got to wait till it's done. That's what we're doing and up until now and then we're getting. So what we have done is together with my partner TV Scientific, we have a platform that's essentially pulled in all of the different network providers that are out there. So historically streaming has been very fragmented. It's very fragmented market. So marketers, if they want to do Hulu, they've got to go to Hulu over here. If they want to go to, you know, Amazon, they've got to go through Amazon. If they want to do, you know, Peacock and Paramount, they've got to go over here. So what we've done is we've taken, we have relationships and pulled all those different providers into one place. That gives us the ability now to get away from targeting by channel and we can start targeting and thinking about it by audience. So we can load in behavioral, contextual, geographic targeting, demographic targeting, load in all those things. And then the AI that is built into the platform on the back end, well, actually go out and find people, find the people that we're targeting and where they're watching tv. So if you think about it, it's just like digital marketing. If you think about how display advertising, way back in the day, you used to have affinity networks that were built so you'd know you'd get on these, like, hundred different, you know, websites. And then it became, okay, well, now we have the ability to do behavioral targeting, and we're just going to load it into the Google platform and Google's going to go out and find people where they are online. And we're doing essentially the same thing with streaming now.
[00:08:25] Host: Okay, so I'm getting. So bear with me here. Yeah. So all of these services, the ones I use, you choose your Persona when you log in. Right. Netflix kind of keeps you logged in until you change it.
[00:08:36] Guest: Yep.
[00:08:37] Host: Do you know who, who it is within the family?
[00:08:39] Guest: Well, we don't. That is one thing. It's down to the household level.
So. Except it's hard to say because if somebody is streaming and consistently streaming on, you know, and within these accounts. So within Hulu. Right. You have different accounts within Hulu or you have different accounts within Netflix. So, yes, we can do that based on their behaviors. Right. So if a student is streaming on Hulu, they're definitely streaming much different content than what their parents are streaming. That's going to account for something. Right. So we'll know that they'll see a commercial during their streaming piece of it. However, we are doing it at the household level. So knowing that the parents are also streaming there as well, getting in front of them, and at that household level, they'll also see the ads. So it'll be across all devices and channels.
[00:09:25] Host: Yeah, I would see that there's. That huge benefit is to hit the parents and the students. Like, is there. Do you see different messaging being used, you know, both ways?
[00:09:33] Guest: So what I say to schools, and this has been a challenge. This not a challenge. I don't like to say that this has been an opportunity for us to educate schools and to make them think. What I say to them is, okay, we're getting down to the household level. And I can tell you how we. We do that too. But we're getting down to the household level. We're putting commercials in that home across all devices. It's essentially the same thing as if a student invited you into their living room and said, you have 30 seconds and then I'm gonna kick you out. You have 30 seconds to pitch me on your school. What are you gonna say to them that is gonna make them want to come to your institution? And you're not gonna just stand there and throw taglines at them and talk about your class sizes and all of that. What you're gonna try to do is you're gonna try to hit on emotional touch points with them and things that resonate with them and make them say, I can see myself there. I want that for my future. I want that. So trying to get schools to get away from the narrative that we're so, so used to in higher ed is everyone sounds the same, everyone's saying the same thing, we're all screaming taglines into the void and really go, okay, you have this unique opportunity now what are you going to say to them? So sometimes if you're trying to reach parents and students, like, I have a campaign right now that's going and they're doing some parent and student targeting. So they made a commercial that really could be relevant for both, really. But just talking about the student and the student journey and opportunities there that if I was a parent, well, I am a parent, but if I was watching that commercial, it would make me go, hey, honey, did you look at this school? Have you heard of this school before? Seems like it could be a really cool opportunity for you.
[00:11:12] Host: Yeah, a lot of awareness. Top of funnel, if I would say, for marketing type of messaging.
[00:11:19] Guest: It is. But the unique thing about what we're doing, Jeff, is that we have actually taken it and turned it into a full funnel tool because we have so many capabilities to target at various times during the funnel using, I mean, using a lot of the same capabilities we can use in digital with list based targeting, as, you know, so segmenting your audience and doing list based targeting. But we also can, we can target audiences from high schools that we're able to isolate using mobile device ID targeting. And then we're able to, to take Those mobile device IDs, identify the households where they reside, and put commercials across all devices in those homes. But if you think about it, you know, how we've been running these campaigns for schools is, you know, in the fall you're launching your senior search, and so you need a commercial that's really directing them to learn more about the school. And then you can switch that over in October to a commercial that is different but talks about apply now, you know, and directs them to the application page. And then now we're doing yield campaigns for schools with kind of a take the next step message, simultaneously reaching out to rising seniors with a starting like all over, try to get them on campus, learn more, all of that. So, and the one big thing too, you met, you mentioned social media. We do recommend when we're running campaigns like this to do like a matching social media campaign as well where we take those same audiences, we take a 15 or 30 second mobile optimized version of their commercial and simultaneously in lockstep with the streaming campaign, push that into the social platforms as well. Therefore, we can make sure that anybody that might not be streaming full time or spending a majority of their time streaming, we're going to capture them on their social pages with the same version of that commercial.
[00:13:03] Host: So I'm wondering, we've seen a lot of external pressures and challenges over the last couple of years. Well, we started off with like, we're getting more aware of the enrollment cliff is starting to happen and it's hurting schools with enrollment. But now we have this new, we have a new administration that's been pretty challenging for higher ed. Are you seeing any new challenges arise just due to the factors in our country and the world in the last year or so?
[00:13:30] Guest: Thankfully, not yet. You know, I'm also very aware of what's going on with the administration and our industry and all of that. We're not there yet and I suspect if anything we might see pauses or delays in budget. But however, I feel thankful because no matter what happens, marketing can't stop. I mean, if anything they're going to have to ramp up what they're doing.
[00:13:56] Host: What I'm seeing, because I talk to different strategies, different types of marketing out there is we all know we have to get ultra targeted and very ROI conscious and like what channels can we eliminate? What are our best channels?
[00:14:09] Guest: Right.
[00:14:10] Host: You know, I'm not sure how you're priced or anything, but it seems I was not aware you could target this. Well, talk a little bit about the attribution. I know that's part of what you can really do is can you give us some examples of what you could track in a campaign?
[00:14:27] Guest: Most people are used to doing streaming campaigns and right now the information that they're getting is impressions and completion rates of video, which if you're doing a good job and you've got an engaging video, your completion rate should be upwards of like 97, 98% because they can't see, skip them so that's all great information, fine and dandy, but that doesn't give us any roi. Really, what we're doing is we're able to track when somebody is exposed to the commercial. We are able to match up that commercial to the home where they live, the device that they're on at the time, the IP address that that commercial is being shown, and then we can see where they go afterwards. So we're able then to track what we. In streaming. What we call conversions are not the same as digital. You would think of digital conversions like, you know, where you're clicking on ads and things like that. This is going to be a soft conversion where, you know, we're just seeing where they're going after the commercial. So after they're exposed, are they going to the website? Yes. Okay, great. Maybe the first one two times that they see a commercial, they'll go to the website. But then after that we can tag up to 25 different pages so they can look at. Are they filling out RFIs? Are they clicking on application links? Are they filling out it? Are they. Do you know if. Does the school have their own application? Is someone filling out an application after they see it? Are they going to the Apply now page? Are they going to the program pages, financial aid, so on and so forth? So during the course of the campaign, we can see that in real time, right? So we can see, okay, like this month we drove, you know, 35,000 people to your website and 5,000 people that went to the admissions page. You had 3,000 people that went to financial aid and so on and so forth, and obviously can measure how creative is tracking, and you can do AB testing with commercials and all the same things that you can do with digital. But then really where the magic happens is when the schools then provide us, I'll go to the school and say, okay, you know, during the course of your campaign, your campaign ran for six months, four months, whatever it was, during this time frame, from start to finish, send me from your CRM any new applicants, inquiries, deposits, event registrations, any action basically that was taken by somebody and that you've collected a home address from and send that to me. Send me a file. You don't have to send me any personal information on the student. All I want is the unique student ID and the home address. That's it. Street address, city, state, zip. Send that over to me. We can run that through our platform and we can provide back to the school an actual list tag. All of the students that we know were a exposed to the commercial and B, we know they were exposed and went to the site and took an action.
[00:17:00] Host: That's really incredible. Like, I was going to ask you how what does the collaboration look like? You just started to describe it because it's not just, you know, let's start this campaign. What's your budget? Here you go. And it's run. It's, it's really, It's a partnership.
[00:17:14] Guest: 100%. 100%. And the thing that's so great about this is that if you think about any groups of students or even alumni that you want to reach. So I am really trying to get people to bite for like capital campaigns and fundraising campaigns because this is the most amazing tool. And there, I will tell you, I mean you have all your lists of alumni, right. You can target their homes, you can put these ads. You know, they already have an affinity for your brand anyway. So putting something in front of them saying give back to the place that gave something to you is something that I would love to see schools do. And nobody's really bit on it yet because this is still relatively new. But we are getting into doing more, a lot more grad campaigns for this. It is a fantastic tool for graduate. It's not something that, you know, it's not going to be a silver bullet for anybody that's going to solve all their problems that just doesn't exist. And so it's not something you want to just like turn it on and then go, oh, how many applications did I get from it? Oh, it didn't work. Turn it off. Especially on the grad side. Right. Because that's a long sales cycle. But it is something that you could comfortably run for three, four months, pull back for a month, run for three months with like a different commercial pull back. So yeah, it's, you know, those are the types of recommendations and stuff that we bring to the table too. And myself and my team, we have tons of years of experience in higher ed between all of us, so we can really be a partnership.
[00:18:35] Host: So you've given the couple clear use cases or campaigns are admissions and advancement fundraising. I'm thinking of something, tell me if you've thought of this or are working on any of these types of campaigns where a lot of schools are struggling building their incoming traditional age classes. Right. We have the enrollment cliff and less students are going to college. So I've seen a lot of schools leaning on their continuing education areas, divisions, all these stopouts who are often adult age, continuing education where they started, you know, is that maybe a good Use case. That sure would work well with Mbo Edu.
[00:19:12] Guest: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, stop outs again, they've got all their information, we can target them very easily, you know, and there, there's something about that message to finish your degree, go back, finish it, you know, and I don't see anybody right now. Here's the thing about what we're doing too, is that it is such a uncrowded space right now. Digital is super crowded. Digital has become very noisy. It's hard to stand out because everybody's doing it now. We're all saying the same thing. And one thing that is super frustrating over the years to me is I would talk to clients and they'd say, well, we've been doing digital, but we're just not seeing the results that we used to, to see. And you know, there's obviously a variety of reasons out there that that's happening, but one of them is that it is a crowded space. And the answer isn't always you have to spend more, you have to spend more. There has to be a better way for us to do it. And so what we bring to the table is streaming performance. TV is not only designed to be a tool that's great as a standalone. Right. But what it also does is it will supercharge anything else that you're already running. So we've seen it happen. We see it double triple conversion rates, we've seen it lower the cost per click. We've seen it, you know, across the board. Once somebody implements a campaign, everything else that they're running on the back end, we see their email engagement rates. The more times people are exposed to commercial email engagement, rates go up. So it's not just something that is designed to just work by itself.
[00:20:44] Host: It truly is an element of a campaign.
[00:20:47] Guest: Yes, it's truly meant to be in an ecosystem. And really, you know, we've watched, we look at stats, we read stats all the time. We're also always doing surveys and stuff. And really this generation too, video, not just streaming content, but video in general is where things are going. So when you look at like the social media platforms that have also been exploding, TikTok and Snapchat are up there because those are short form videos. People like that engaging content that's kind of very organic feeling. And so when you take a version of their commercial and you push like a 15 second version into Snapchat platform or TikTok platform as well, that also performs really well and you see great conversions from it. One of the biggest things, one of the Areas where I, I love watching. This is what happens to paid search like Google AdWords when you're running these campaigns with streaming, because what's the first thing that you do when you watch TV and you see something that interests you? You usually pick up your phone and you Google it. Right? And students are no different. And so we see paid search conversions, like 15 to 19% conversion rates on these. Because, I mean, and especially on branded search terms, because that's what they see. They see the school, they search, it comes up, they click on it. I feel like it's this magical thing that I'm trying to tell everyone in the world about. Not a lot of people know about it. People are somewhat skeptical about it. But then the people that finally do it and the, you know, 25 schools that we've been working with over the last year and a half, all of them have renewed. I have success story after success story of increased applications, making goals last year when they weren't going to, having a waiting list for the first time ever. So it's very cool on what it does.
[00:22:27] Host: The other thing is, I may be wrong on this, but we're not as saturated with higher ed marketing at that level.
[00:22:35] Guest: Correct?
[00:22:35] Host: Right. You might stand out a little mic.
[00:22:37] Guest: Whoa.
[00:22:37] Host: There's an ad for a university. I notice when I'm watching TV and there's an ad for university. It's not that comment exactly, because nobody's.
[00:22:43] Guest: Doing it because they have been so reluctant to put money into it because there's never been a way to measure roi. It's like billboards nowadays, right? They're like, well, I guess we have to do some billboards because the board of trustees drive down that highway every day, right? And they need to see our ad. You know, the only real commercials that you are seeing a lot of are the for profits. You see Southern New Hampshire, you see Phoenix and stuff. And the reason behind that is because there is so much available inventory right now and there are not enough advertisers in the space, which is why you see the same commercials over and over and over again. So that's what we have. And we have the ability to fill that space right now. It's just like a wide open meadow for the taking. And this is what I can. I'm like, I feel like I'm just like screaming from the rooftops, come on, people. And I know it's going to be a different story in the next two years because this is exactly how it was going to schools with Digital Marketing in 2010, I would talk about retargeting, which is now like the most simple element of digital. Right. But back then it was so new and believe it or not, I would talk about it and people would just be like, that's really creepy. I don't, I don't want to do that. And I'm like, well, this is where the future is going. And those schools that got in early and really started to do digital marketing are the ones that have continued to thrive over the years.
[00:24:03] Host: Yeah, talk about creepy. You're going to get surpassed by, by AI with companies starting to send caricatures or real life Personas of the prospects they're sending to saying, look, this could be you. And the balance of creepy versus cool is, is the challenge.
[00:24:18] Guest: Yeah, creepy cool. That's. I've been saying that about digital and everything for the longest time. I like to call it creepy cool. And it's already happening.
[00:24:26] Host: Yeah, it's already happening. You've spent more than 15 years in the higher education space. You've been at Carnegie and Net Natives. What shifts in the industry have you seen that have been most impactful?
[00:24:40] Guest: Well, on the school side of things, it's been interesting to watch the evolution of enrollment folks leaving the industry. A lot of the, I say the OGs. I consider myself an OG because I've been doing this for so long and a lot of the clients and people that I've known for so long have either retired now or they've gone to the vendor side. There have been a lot of people that have gone to the vendor side. So we have a lot of fresh young faces that are coming up in the ranks. And you know, that that has been interesting. And so to see what schools are looking for and if they're looking for people that are more data driven and they're looking for people, you know, that have that kind of outside experience, that has been definitely a shift. I think the terms have become shorter of people staying because it is, as, you know, a very stressful job to be a part of, you know, and especially when the tenure of presidents has gotten shorter and they're, you know, staying for three years, five years, and then leaving, you know, and a new president comes in and they oftentimes want their own staff, they want to bring in their own people. And so you could be doing a great job and bringing in all the students and you could find yourself out of a job with a new president coming in. So that I feel like we've really seen a lot of that change. And obviously, you know, we talk about the Demographic cliff all the time. One of the things that I think we're not, we are starting to talk about it a little bit more, but not as much as we should as an industry in general is this. Emily, I think I did it was on the college vine Divine down with Emily Smith. And she and I kind of coined together the, the perception cliff, if you will. So everyone talks about the enrollment cliff, which is very easily quantifiable because we all see those demographics. But there is also this perception that higher education is not worth the money and that, you know, education in general is not worth it, and that that is a move that's going sweeping across the country. And I think what's going to happen if we don't collectively, as an industry, address it somehow. And even doing a mar, like a nationwide marketing campaign for higher education in general doesn't matter. Go to a community college, go to a vocational school, just continue your education, be a lifelong learner. We're going to see it come bite us, you know, in the butt because those numbers aren't quantifiable. And all of a sudden we're going to go, oh, we planned for this and this and this, but we're still down students. What is going on? Right? That's a big thing. And I know Angel Perez has been out there from nacac, he's been out there talking about a little bit, which I appreciate so much. But I still think as an industry, we need to get more on board with that and collectively come together and figure out what we're going to do before it's too late. But again, we're also usually more reactive than we are proactive about things because we have a million things to deal with. On the vendor side, it's been interesting to watch on the company side of things, you know, the changes and evolution that have happened in this space with a lot of the smaller companies kind of getting gobbled up by these bigger companies. And now you really have got these like, big four.
But what I'll say to that too is there are a lot of very exciting smaller startups. And I still consider a startup, you know, three years, four years, I still consider that a startup. But there's a lot of great, cool companies where people are doing a lot of innovative things in higher ed. And I, I wish that marketers and enrollment folks had more time to kind of invest in looking into those companies. And, you know, even at conferences like AMA and NACAC and stuff, like, they oftentimes get caught up at the big booth at the front of the exhibit hall. And if you take the time to walk around, which I have done, there's some companies out there. I'm like, I have never heard of you, but this is the coolest thing. And so I talk about them whenever I can. And I'm like, you need to check this company out, because I really think it would help you.
[00:28:29] Host: Well, you're leaning right into the kind of our. Our mission at EdTech Connect was to level the playing field with all these, because that was my use case when I first started. This is like, I couldn't find a cloud workflow solution for my school because there were so many out there. How do I get to my shortlist?
[00:28:45] Guest: Yeah.
[00:28:45] Host: So how do we compete with these bigger companies? And that's. You're. You're right on. There's. I even follow Y Combinator, the accelerator that launches these incredible companies. And there's a lot of education ones in there now. Most of them are AI and it's a lot of education, you know, focused companies. So it's exciting to, to see.
[00:29:02] Guest: Yeah, some really cool stuff. I try to tell people all the time, like, you don't know what you don't know. So even if you take a few minutes, listen to a podcast for a little bit, or listen, you know, just even 15 minutes, or open up emails every now and then, you know, take one once a week and go through vendor emails and just give them a glance and read through them instead of just deleting them. Because I know we all get overwhelmed and I get outreach from vendors and it's very easy just to delete, delete, delete. But there have been times too that I've opened emails and I'm like, I just clicked on it. And I was like, wow, I've never heard of this company before. This is pretty cool, actually. So trying to get schools to kind of look at those more the small players.
[00:29:39] Host: As one final question, if you could give one key piece of advice to someone looking to modernize the higher ed marketing approach, what would it be?
[00:29:48] Guest: I would say to diversify what you're doing. Look at diversifying what you're doing. Look at new strategies that are out there. Lean into video, whether it's streaming, whether it's in stream, whether it's short form video, because that is the place where you can cut through the noise with that. And I think that being authentic to who you are is key in your advertising, but then also creating an emotional connection. That's what's missing in a lot of our marketing. It's become very rote and I think we tend to all say the same things. So finding that way to spark that feeling with your potential students is going to help propel you ahead of the competition.
[00:30:38] Host: Great advice. Thank you, Jennifer. We will put links to Ambio Edu and Jennifer's profile in the show notes and it was really great to have you on.
[00:30:47] Guest: Great. Thanks so much, Jeff. I appreciate it.
[00:30:49] Host: All right. Bye. Bye.
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