Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Guest: Going to take syllabuses from all the courses at nau. This is our goal. We're not there yet. You know how it takes time and we're going to upload those into our engine and we're going to compare the syllabi from all the courses to make sure that the students are being trained to be able to take on these jobs. So that's one side of it, the other side of it. So we're going to deploy agents all over the Internet working for our center.
[00:00:26] Host: That sounds incredible.
[00:00:27] Guest: Yeah, isn't it?
[00:00:35] Host: Welcome to the EdTech Connect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon, and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education. We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators, and solution providers who are transforming the learning landscape.
Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in.
Welcome back, everybody. I'm excited today because we have Mr. Jeff Seville. Jeff is a dynamic and innovative leader with a deep passion for empowering individuals and communities through workforce development career services.
He currently serves as the Business and Education Partnership Manager at Northern Arizona University where he focuses on building partnerships with industry leaders, developing training programs to address workforce needs.
Prior to this role, Jeff served as the Director of Career and Life Design at Fort Lewis College where he implemented creative initiatives to connect students learning with real world career opportunities.
He also brings extensive experience from his time as the founder of Blinker Media, a mission driven organization that empowers nonprofits through digital marketing and as a leader in business incubation at organizations such as the center for Entrepreneurial Innovation. Jeff's diverse background combined with his commitment to community engagement makes him a valuable voice in the conversation about higher education technology and its impact on workforce readiness. Welcome to the show, Jeff.
[00:02:24] Guest: Hey, thanks, Jeff. I really appreciate being here. Appreciate you having me. Who would have known 30 some years ago that you know, when we were sharing the hallway of Tinsley dorm at Northern Arizona University, that we'd be back here 30 years later doing the same thing?
[00:02:40] Host: Yeah, we'll date ourselves here, but that was 30 plus years ago when we first met at NAU. And now you're back at NAU. And I'm really excited to talk to you for so many reasons. And first is because every time we meet I feel like, oh, we should record that. You'll drop some technology thing that you've found and are already using it in a real world situation. So I learned something from you every time.
But also, you devoted so much of your career directly to serving students, whether it's through their entrepreneurial ideas or beginning their career. And a lot of companies I talk to that, we know we're talking about a product that maybe they're really not involved in that way. So for that reason too, it's going to be fun. But you've had such an interesting career, diverse background spanning from marketing and business.
I kind of want to ask you to start off with what initially sparked your passion for empowering individuals and communities. How's that evolved?
[00:03:34] Guest: I think where it all started with me was, you know, after I graduated from nau, way back when, I wanted to stay in Flagstaff, you know, and Flagstaff, for those of you that don't know, we sit at 7,000ft, 90 miles south of the Grand Canyon, and it's a community of about 70,000, 75,000 today. You know, but back then it was, it was pretty small community, and there just wasn't a lot of job opportunities. So, you know, we called it poverty with a view at times. And I quickly realized that, you know, if I'm going to create a lifestyle and a life here in Flagstaff, Arizona, I probably need to start my own company.
And I've always been interested. I've come from an entrepreneurial family. My family owned a savings and loan and bank in the 80s and 90s and. And I always just have had a passion for, for entrepreneurship. So, you know, morph several years later. Even when I own, you know, my wife and I own several companies, I always had a passion for our student to come in and do an internship with us and try to just teach them things that, that I learned along the way to help those students become super relevant into the workforce. And then when I had the opportunity to move to Durango, Colorado and become the director of the Career and life Design center there at Fort Lewis College, it really sparked my interest.
It's like, okay, these students spend four years and they commit to an institution like that, but then what's next? And they don't know how to answer those questions. So I took it upon my department's self to. To really get after that and help those students. And that, that was the past four years now that I'm at NAU and I'm still kind of doing the same things. I'm still helping tons of students on the side, and it's just a lot of fun for Me, I can tell.
[00:05:24] Host: Because you're always doing something new, and I'm hearing some great stories from you. So let's dive right into it. Tell us either some specific examples or, I don't know, your broad view of how institutions leverage technology at NAU or in your background to enhance workforce development initiatives, especially in these rapidly evolving fields, in these technology fields or others.
[00:05:47] Guest: Yeah, it's interesting. We just launched at nau, what we call NAU Venture Studios, and basically it's on the premise of a student incubation program. We want students to come in and itch their passions of creating companies and ideas around this. And, and this is nothing new, but the way we're going to approach it is we're going to have structures around really difficult problems to solve, like food insecurity or housing in rural areas of our country, health care out on the Navajo Indian reservation.
But one of the things that in my. My, what I call my day job at NAU is, you know, we're working a lot with employers that are struggling finding talent. And so let me give you an example of what we're going to launch inside of NAU Venture Studios, and that is Arizona right now is experiencing this massive growth of chip manufacturing. TSMC just built a huge facility in North Phoenix. Intel's been here in the state of Arizona for a really long time, and they're expanding. And then you have the whole supply chain around that supports those companies to develop these chips. ASU just was awarded $150 million to focus on packaging chips, the surrounding housing around these little nanometer chips. And so it's massive, massive opportunities. With that comes, you know, TSMC alone needs to hire over 7,500 people in the next four years.
And so when you look at all that, you just kind of got to sit back and say, well, where's all this talent going to come from? You know, just today they announced that 256,000 jobs were added in December alone. The Wall Street Journal has a big article on it today. So where's all, where is all this talent going to come from? So I, I just took a step back and, and I started to ask the question of, like, we're really good at attracting these companies to come to Arizona, but how do those job opportunities match to the talent pool? And what I mean by that is, like, how do we educate those students to go out and get those jobs? Do they want those jobs? That's another question. So I started looking at this, and then I came up with the idea that we're going to put into NAU Venture Studios, and it's called the NAU center for Workforce Intelligence. So let me give you some examples of what we're talking about here.
This is now part of my side gig project at nau, and I'm just super passionate about these things. But let's say TSMC publishes a job description and they're hiring a lab technician. Well, we're building agents that are going to sit there on their website. This is the only way I can think about how to explain this. But the agent will sit there and listen. And so when it sees that job description get posted, an AI agent will grab that job description and text our student operators of the center and say, hey, TSMC just posted a job.
Okay, what does that mean? Then what we can do is we score the quality of that job posting. Okay, we have an assessment tool that we're building in AI and it'll score that job then. Because we're going to take syllabuses from all the courses at nau. This is our goal. We're not there yet. You know how it takes time. And we're going to upload those into our engine and we're going to compare the syllabi from all the courses to make sure that the students are being trained to be able to take on these jobs. So that's one side of it, the other side of it. So we're going to deploy agents all over the Internet working for our center.
[00:09:39] Host: That sounds incredible.
[00:09:40] Guest: Isn't it wild? It's just so crazy. And these agents never take a day off, so that's kind of cool. So from there then, we're going to get into making sure that we're developing and helping these employers create cultures that are inducive to hiring recent graduates and things like that. So. So all the experiential learning will come in and all this will be backed by data that we're acquiring inside the center.
[00:10:07] Host: So it's hard to keep up when you're going to school. You're going to get out in four years. Four years is a long time to kind of predict like, what's going to be hot in four years. Yeah, there's a problem with higher ed right now competing with all these micro credentials and things like that. Is this kind of along those lines that, you know, we can kind of keep up with that a little better?
[00:10:26] Guest: Yeah. I think what's interesting is 12 to 18 months ago, institutions were like freaking out, like, oh my gosh, you know, AI is going to be the end of us. And I don't come, I don't have a higher ed background. I'm an entrepreneur at heart. And, you know, so when I bring my background into academics, I'm not always the most favorite person in the room, but I always try to ask really pertinent questions of like, what's best for our students. That's all that matters.
[00:10:55] Host: Business focus questions, like looking at our customers. Right?
[00:10:58] Guest: Yeah.
[00:10:58] Host: Or dare I say our customers, you know? Yeah.
[00:11:01] Guest: And it's like, it's all about the students. If we just focus on students, you know, you have all the research, you have all these other grants and monies flying around an institution, but at the end of the day, if you just focus on the student and that student experience, they could have chose to go anywhere in the country, anywhere in the world. They could have gone to be educated, but they chose to come to NAU or ASU or U of A or wherever they chose to go. And we owe it to them to provide the education, the experience that they need to go out into the real world and get that experience to get jobs.
[00:11:37] Host: I want to go back to that agent model you're building. Is that what you were telling me, that you've already built this kind of prototype with makeup.com. right. Because Jeff, you're the hands on guy. You're like, I'm just gonna do it and, and maybe you'll need help later, but you already have this kind of in a little beta working process.
[00:11:53] Guest: We do, yeah. And I just, I just sat down on a Saturday afternoon and I just like, I'm tired of thinking about it because this is all I can think about. You just ask my wife. And she's like, jeff, you need to chill out.
You know, this is all I think about. So it's like building a startup, you know, and so I sat down, I built an agent. And then, and there, there's different tech stacks, you know, there's Replit, there's N8N, there's Relevant. You know, there's all these agent builders that are coming out now. And so it's pretty easy because I'm not a coder, I'm not a developer. And so I just kind of built it and then deployed it and it sat there and all of a sudden I get a text, tsm.
[00:12:31] Host: But here's the thing with people like you, I think now you don't have to be a coder anymore with all these tools out there.
[00:12:37] Guest: That's right, right.
[00:12:38] Host: I mean, that's the beauty of it. Now I heard someone say, I Think it was Dahlin at Halda is now is the age for the creatives.
[00:12:44] Guest: Yeah.
[00:12:44] Host: Give an idea, you can make it happen. So.
[00:12:46] Guest: Exactly.
[00:12:47] Host: That's what I love about what you do. You just go do it.
[00:12:49] Guest: Yeah. You just got to execute. You know, I envision eventually the NAU center for Workforce Intelligence is going to have a room full of monitors. There's going to be tons of computers, computing power, we're going to build some of our own language models, but it's all going to be student ran. And I got some pushback on that. They're like, well, Jeff, you know, we're making significant investments in this. Why? You know, I said, if you're going to tell me I can't have students run this department, this thing, then I'm out. It does makes no sense. Let's get on the experience with oversight and let's go help employers and help the students be relevant in the workforce.
[00:13:27] Host: So I want to go back a little bit to when I first started working on EdTech Connect and I looped you in really early. Probably should have said this in the intro, but basically, yeah, Jeff was one of the first five members of EdTech and Act and he was helping me build the UI and like giving me feedback. So thank you for that. Now we have over a thousand members. You were working in more of the career services area. I think you were at Fort Lewis at the time.
[00:13:53] Guest: Yep.
[00:13:53] Host: So what are some. And you were loading up our career services like tools. Like what are some tools and technology out there that students need to be doing? Because some of the basics to get their career started that, you know, you always have some great tips or even some tech name dropping you have or any, anything like that.
[00:14:13] Guest: Yeah. You know what's interesting is just as recent as a year ago, two years ago, some of the tools we were using at Fort Lewis were very, very cutting edge. We had an interview tool called Quincia because, you know, one of the new ways of these companies like Amazon and tsmc, they're, they're hiring people as fast as they can and you know, a lot of these jobs are very technical and very difficult to hire for. So the first interview that a student will experience is a what we call the one way interview. So they get online and it's AI on the other side and it creates an entire transcript of everything they say. It counts how many times they use a term that's in the industry, do they use the terminology that's in their industry?
And it's super scary and intimidating for everybody. Let Alone a student that's going to graduate in May. Now they got to throw all this into their interviewing practices when they're already nervous. So we acquired a tool called Quincia. And Quincia would make sure that our students resumes would get through applicant tracking systems. But then on the other side, it would help them practice one way interviewing and it helps interviewing in general. So at the end of the day it's like these tools have been out. And because companies are trying to hire so fast, you know, when you add 256,000 jobs in one month to America, that's a problem.
So these tools have to be in place. And I think they have to be in place like their first year as a first year student. You know, you got to introduce these tools and adapt as the tools change, you know. So now right before I left Fort Lewis to come to Nautilus, I built prompts. I mean we had a whole library of prompts that, so students could go in and say, give me the top 15 questions that I'm going to be asked in my interview into ChatGPT.
And it would pop out behavioral based questions because the student would say, I want five of the questions behavioral based and the other five to be technical questions or hard skills questions. And then they could sit there and practice with ChatGPT on answering an interview question. You know, it's just changing all the time and it's really hard to keep up with.
[00:16:25] Host: I want to ask you kind of a follow up to that and like you're very much like, I see a problem, I'm going to go try to fix it. And like not too afraid of the consequences of like, you know, when you're in. I was in higher ed for 21 years and you and I worked together on some things and you realize that sometimes if you try too hard, you kind of get put back in your box saying, well, that's not quite our process. What's some advice you give to people, maybe have some ideas like you have, but are afraid of like kind of rocking the boat in their system. Like how do you get your school to adapt kind of new, new things or ideas? You seem pretty good at that.
[00:17:00] Guest: I think what you do is like just like we talked about a few minutes ago, and that is just go build a prototype. Just go build something that's going to get the attention of your boss or your colleagues or faculty members. One of the things I used to do, and this would get me in trouble, but I would ask the students, I said, let's, let's take 30 minutes and find the ultimate job that you'll ever want to have. And granted, when you're a recent graduate, you're probably not going to be qualified to get that job. But, like, let's just find the ultimate job that you're going to be super passionate about. You're going to be all in. Then, physically, I want you to print that job description out on paper, and then I want you to run down or go to our print shop or wherever, and I want you to laminate it. Okay. And every day you go into that finance class or that accounting class or that engineering, you know, I want you to pull out your laminated job description and set it in front of you or prop it up on your laptop screen. And then at the end of all those classes that you're taking, I want you to walk up to your faculty member and ask, when am I going to learn this?
And they started doing it. And when they started doing it, I started getting emails from faculty, Jeff, let's not do this. This is not our purpose. And I would go and I'd set a meeting with those faculty members and I'd be like, that is the only purpose we're here. And like, no, we're here to educate the student. And I say that's very good. And, well, you know, but at the end of the day, my job is to help these students get jobs. And. And that's all that matters to me. And, you know, there'd be several times my boss was the provost at Fort Lewis, and he'd call me in on the carpet and, you know, Jeff, let's just throttle back in this area. You know, I know you're an entrepreneur and you like to solve problems. And, you know, and I'd get the talking to, and I would ask really difficult questions. But. But at the end of the day, if you're passionate about the student and you make it all about the student, there's really not much they can say.
[00:19:02] Host: You know, that's great advice. You mentioned Quincia. What are some other tools that you think people in those roles could be looking at to help them make some change and really impact students?
[00:19:12] Guest: Yeah, so another one is job scan. We use jobscan quite a bit. That's kind of been out there a while. I think the most exciting part right now is just all these AI tools that are out. Like, you can upload your resume right now to ChatGPT and it'll come back with all the past tense action verbs and starting off your bullet points and all that stuff. I mean it does it all for no cost.
[00:19:36] Host: Yeah, so.
[00:19:37] Guest: So those are things that you can definitely, definitely put into place.
[00:19:41] Host: I have one I just thought of here and it's the self serving question, so answer it however you want here. But my son is a senior at UC Santa Barbara. He's majoring in data science and statistics, double majoring in linguistics. You know, his life in front of him, where you kind of do has a lot of options. Yep, he's got great grades. This senior project is incredible. What he's working on right now with, you know, some real time using their supercomputer at UC Santa Barbara. Awesome. And he's like, I need to get a job, I'm graduating in May.
And he doesn't, he doesn't really, doesn't they have a kind of a, an in and a lot of them get jobs in financial institutions. He doesn't really want to go that way, but he probably would if you got a good job that way. Anything else is on the table. So where does he start? How do we get him? I'm pretty sure he'll interview well, but he doesn't have any experience. Like where would he start to go find a job?
[00:20:30] Guest: Yeah, I mean for sure your son could call me and I would definitely help him. I'm helping like six or seven students right now from friends that, you know, have kids that are getting ready to graduate. But at the end of the day where he starts is again, to me it goes back to the job description. So if he finds the, the ultimate job description, the job that he's can qualify for and go do as a recent graduate, then anywhere there's a gap in his education, he needs to go and fill that gap.
And so what I would do in informatics and analytics and data visualizations and all that kind of stuff, I would start building out an incredible portfolio site. There are so many open source data sets that you can go down, go today and pull them down and ask really difficult questions, especially now with ChatGPT. But you can get a public tableau account and visualize all this data and start to build his expertise in his area that he wants to go into. What's happening right now is with LinkedIn. I'm a huge, huge, massive fan of LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn will be the most powerful network I'll ever see in my lifetime. And so your son can get on LinkedIn today, right now and publish an article that could have awesome engagement with some really high ups at these companies that he wants to go work at. We're one post on LinkedIn or two clicks away from talking to the CEO of the company he wants to go work for. Think about that. That's powerful. And one of the things I did at Fort Lewis is I. I taught LinkedIn profile optimization courses. I mean, and I battled to get it integrated into the curriculum. And we had several faculty members that would integrate LinkedIn optimization, profile optimization into the curriculum.
[00:22:26] Host: That's great advice. I mean, a lot of professionals that have been in the workforce for a while need to heed that advice, too. But I noticed the younger students coming out. You can tell them, and I don't have as much experience as yours, like, exactly what to do, but update your LinkedIn. Make sure everything's on there, because you're gonna get ahead of all these other students who. It's. It's hard when you're young to, like, build those connections and that content and, and it's. But it's. I mean, I can see it with my own businesses, and you and I have plenty of experience with how well that works.
[00:22:55] Guest: Yeah. And, you know, they think they have no value to bring to the table. And a LinkedIn post and it's like, no, you. I mean, we're old now, and it's like, it's like, you know, you have so much to bring to the table. Like, you go and sit in an electrical engineering course for an hour and 10 minutes or whatever the course time is, come back and just sit in your. In your apartment and write a blog post about what you learned. A post on LinkedIn about what you learned that day and what you didn't like and what you do. Like, ask questions of your audience. And if your audience is five people, doesn't matter. The reach on LinkedIn is so incredible. You know, if you tag the post.
[00:23:35] Host: Right at Thanksgiving, I always was joking, like, who's. Who's going to take the conversation and things. And my kids, my college kids are the most interesting people in the room. Like, their lives. Like, my life now is like, do we really. No one wants to talk about edtech. So, like, got to listen to what. Yeah.
[00:23:52] Guest: So, yeah, it's. It's interesting.
[00:23:54] Host: I. I kind of asked one of these earlier, the big one, about, like, how do people get things done in higher ed? But what are some other challenges or opportunities associated with using technology to. Maybe you're a director in higher ed or anywhere in the middle or even whoever you are when you're trying to optimize for tasks. It's like appointment scheduling or communication or tracking data. What are some of those challenges and opportunities that you, you've seen or have an experience with.
[00:24:21] Guest: I think in that space right now, a lot of institutions are on Microsoft Teams and Outlook and so forth. And Microsoft made a huge bet on OpenAI, as we all know, and gave them billions of dollars to buy their technology. So Microsoft Copilot is starting to really become a player, in my opinion. So one of the things I'm working on right now is I'm not very good at email. I don't like email. I think it's a waste of time. I sit there and try to respond. So now my goal is to, in the next week or two is to have every email read by Copilot and draft a response. So that's like my first step.
[00:25:00] Host: And you just change it and send it and have very low. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:25:05] Guest: These language models are so smart and they learn your style, you know, because I'm always kind of messing with people in terms of joking around, you know.
[00:25:14] Host: Yeah.
[00:25:14] Guest: You know, so it learns my style of response. And so once it gets it down, then it's just going to be a quick read send, you know, I'm right there with you.
[00:25:25] Host: I would use the Google Gemini version of that when that's ready. I'm not nearly as far as even testing that, but I would. I need that too. Any more wisdom, technology wisdom you can drop on us, Jeff?
[00:25:35] Guest: I think the importance of why to adopt these technologies into an institution is because there's a massive gap between. I'm seeing this a lot more because companies are having to move faster, but there's this massive gap between the pace in which a company operates at and an institution operates at. So, like we're developing some courses right now, some upskilling, reskilling courses. We're developing apprenticeship programs for our partners down in Phoenix. And there, you know, we'll sit and we start talking credit for courses and I don't know all the lingo and stuff, but it's like, oh, that's going to take a year to get approved. And these companies are like a year from now, my, my demand for talents doubled.
[00:26:26] Host: You know, wouldn't even know what, what's going to be available. I mean, everything could have completely changed in a year.
[00:26:32] Guest: Exactly. So if these institutions can adopt AI technology or productivity technology, that allows us to remove barriers and to move faster, I think that's where we're going to see a big impact. Have to. We have to. Because what the gap between institutions, higher ed institutions and the public private Employers and stuff is widening, and that's not good for institutions. That is really bad. That's why Google certifications have come out. You know, Corsair is massive. You know, they're, they're saying, go to our platform and go to our LMS and we'll give you a fully endorsed certification from Google and you can go apply for jobs. You know, think about that, because they're moving fast. They're a private company.
[00:27:24] Host: Yeah. So I don't know if you heard this came out like yesterday or this week, I think, and I might get this wrong, hopefully, but we'll see. I'll get it close. But there's benchmark tests they're using for AGI to test, like whether we have AGI. I think in 2020 we would test these models and be 0%. AI cannot do these things in 2020. Last year they tested it with $10,000 of computing equipment. And basically the tests are giving it really complex problems that are unique. And they're not in their training data. They know it's not in the training data. So as of last year, 75% success on this. And then with up to like a million dollars of computing power, it's 87% of their. They're reaching this. So what happened this week, I don't know if you heard, is that Sam Altman is saying AGI is, is pretty much there. Like, we thought it was five, 10 years away last year. Now we're saying it's. They're saying it's there. And there's this new benchmark of super intelligence, which I don't quite even understand what that is. That's why this, this next year is going to be crazy. And so I'm writing this blog about the predictions, but I don't know, it's just kind of came out.
[00:28:31] Guest: Well, think about it, Jeff. If a student in their junior year commits to NAU, okay, why wouldn't an institution like NAU deploy five agents to that student? So these are five agents that are going to continually, 24, seven work for that student. One could be a personalized tutor.
We know that Jeff Seville has add and this is how he likes to learn. He needs flashcards, visualizations. This is how I learn. If my personalized agent tutor knows that, then by the time I get from my junior year in high school to my first year as a first year student at nau, I'm elevated my game tremendously because my personalized tutorial knows the curriculum I'm about ready to embark upon. Okay. So I can prepare for that in my junior year.
So then another tutor could be. Or another agent that gets given to me by my institution. So that makes me feel really good that my institution appreciates me coming. There is this idea of my, like a tutor. I'm sorry, an agent that could sit there and keep my resume up to date in real time. So I took this course in electrical engineering and I completed the course. I got a B. It automatically writes my resume for that section, for those courses and so forth.
[00:30:01] Host: Well, I mean, I think we're into semantics, but you're kind of labeling these different agents. Want to just be one agent at a university that could. That knows everything about you. Like, we don't know what flavor it's going to be. But I totally agree. Like, you heard it here from Jeff. Like, this is what we're hearing everywhere. Is this agentic? AI is going to be in the private sector, but yeah, how will it look in higher ed? I think you're right.
[00:30:19] Guest: Yeah, it's exciting, you know, and. And I think this isn't an intent to replace people in career services or career development. That's not the intent. The idea is of these agents in helping our students is to start that conversation to be higher. You know, why are we spending so much time on. On a student's resume? That's the basics of job applications that should just be, you know, handled by an agent.
[00:30:47] Host: Right. It's. It's becoming very clear now, isn't it? The rote stuff is so easy because we know what AI does.
[00:30:53] Guest: Yep.
[00:30:53] Host: Totally agree with you. It's becoming a little more clear every. Every week how AI is going to be in our. In our higher ed lives. Sure.
[00:31:01] Guest: Yeah. I mean, if I declare my major to be electrical engineering, then this is where we're headed with our intelligence center is like, we know all the major players of where our students can go get those jobs. But the key is, is like, if I declare this is the type of job I want, then my advisor, my agent advisor gives me the entire course pathway to get that job. And if there's gaps in there, then I need to know that my first year as a student, you know, not in April when I'm about ready to graduate. So you can see that everything is going to get tightened up massively in higher ed.
[00:31:42] Host: And higher ed needs this now because they need some advantage. Like, why would I spend this much money on a degree? So.
[00:31:48] Guest: Yep, it's all. Exactly, exactly. It's going to be fun to watch.
[00:31:52] Host: You know, really, this is so awesome talking to you Jeff but I'm going to close out the show and say I'll provide any links relevant links in our show notes and we might do this one again Jeff and just keep.
[00:32:04] Guest: Going but we'll do it in six months. See how it's changed. Thanks so much Jeff. I appreciate it.
[00:32:10] Host: Thanks. Thanks for being on the show.
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