Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Guest: Given the tools today in CRMs, you're able to track people's interactions on social media, what they're opening in their inbox, and then it's about what you do with that data, right? So what are they opening? What are they paying attention to? That data then informs a frontline fundraiser for things that they might speak to that individual about in terms of their connection with the college.
[00:00:30] Host: Welcome to the EdTech Connect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon, and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education. We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators, and solution providers who are transforming the learning landscape. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, let's dive in. Foreign welcome to the show, everybody. Today we welcome Kimberly Verstandic, Vice President for Fundraising and senior Strategist at Mackie strategies. With over 25 years of experience in higher education fundraising, Kim has led transformative campaigns, including Connecticut College's successful $300 million Defy Boundaries campaign. Her expertise in building and leading advancement teams, combined with her firsthand experience navigating technological challenges in institutional advancement, gives her a unique perspective on the state and future of the advancement and fundraising space. Welcome, Kim.
[00:01:47] Guest: Happy to be here, Jeff. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:49] Host: You mentioned that your passion for fundraising began during your seven years at Bucknell. What sparked that passion? It doesn't seem like a career that maybe when you're little, you aspire to be, but at some point you're here.
[00:02:03] Guest: Yeah, it's a great question, right? Because you don't go to college to be a fundraiser or to be an advancement professional. So I did. I started my career at my alma mater, started out as an assistant director of Alumni engagement, and that really provided the foundation for the passion for philanthropy, because really, philanthropy is about engagement in a very personal.
So when I was at Bucknell in those early stages, I went from assistant associate to Director of Alumni Engagement and was approached by the Director of Major Gifts at one point and he said, would you be interested in taking on a portfolio of potential donors? I said, sure, I'd be happy to. Why? And he goes, well, these are folks that we can't get in the door, and we know that you're really good at engagement, so we figured we'd see if you could get in the door. And what I found in that experience was that that foundation of Engagement really actually made it easy for me to engage folks in conversation because really, philanthropy is about that, engaging in conversations. And I really particularly enjoyed matching people's philanthropic passions with an institution's needs.
[00:03:15] Host: So you said you were approaching, you said, yeah, sure, that seems very intimidating to me. I think that's a difference. Maybe you knew you had it or you weren't afraid, you had the confidence, but was it really that easy? You're like, this sounds exciting.
[00:03:27] Guest: It really was. And I want to say my first job, even before starting in higher education, was I sold life insurance door to door in la. And so that experience of literally knocking on doors and getting yourself in a door and providing a service that people needed, I was excited about. And so I was excited to try and match that. And in higher ed, it's the same thing. You actually, what, engages someone and then how can you match what they're passionate about with your needs of an institution?
[00:04:01] Host: Yeah, I kind of want to draw a parallel because I came from higher ed, 20 plus years in higher ed, and about four or five years ago, I left to build EdTech Connect. And I actually was in software sales for a while and I'd never really been in sales and I loved it, I was successful in it. And I feel like so many jobs that are so rewarding, it's all about these relationships and like, if you really believe what you're doing, it's kind of a sales job. But I was surprised how much I thrived and loved that job.
[00:04:30] Guest: Yeah, I agree. It's about enjoying the engagement of people in whatever sales or operation or business that you're in.
[00:04:37] Host: And let's go to Connecticut College. So Connecticut College, you led a team of 40 plus people across various advancement functions.
And I want to talk a little bit about the technology back then and now. How has technology changed the way these different areas collaborate?
[00:04:58] Guest: Oh, it's, it's been dramatic. And I'd say it's been dramatic since I started in higher ed in 1991, when the Internet and email was just a spot spark in someone's eye. Right. And most of the work that you did was picking up the phone or through letters. And, you know, here we are in 2025 with artificial intelligence. So it's changed dramatically. It's also changed how within advancement, we do our business collectively. Alumni engagement has their goals and objectives, fundraising has their goals and objectives, but it's actually brought the advancement function together more so than it was 30 years ago.
[00:05:40] Host: Tell me a little bit more about, like, how you, how it's brought people together.
[00:05:43] Guest: So for example, so given the tools today in CRMs, you're able to track people's interactions on social media, what they're opening in their inbox and then it's about what you do with that data. Right. So what are they opening, what are they paying attention to? That data then informs a frontline fundraiser for things that they might speak to that individual about in terms of their connection with the college. The other thing that we found is advancement obviously in stewardship. Right. You know, how we actually steward folks. I still believe, and I will always believe that face to face interaction is a critical component of this work. But those technologies have allowed us to be more efficient, to respond more quickly, to engage more quickly, which is an important component then of following up with that personal touch.
[00:06:39] Host: I think you're in a position in an industry where yes, it's not going to replace those jobs anytime soon. No, it's going to help you get more done. Like just what you're saying. I say the same thing in different circles, but I haven't. You're the first real advancement professional I've talked to on this podcast. So it's, it's interesting to see that similar threads between Yay, everyone. I'm interested in you talk you right to the CRMs. And that's really one of the core, I think technologies that advancement teams struggle with, they know they need them. I often used to say, like back in the day, the CIO or the leadership at the main central it had a few systems, they had their lms, they had their sis, they had maybe other data warehouse and an email system. There were no CRMs. Right. It was your SAS and you might try to pull names out and send them emails this way. And it was just the way we did. Let no one complain about it. I was like we have these great systems and then come all in the last decade, we have all these tools and one of them is our CRMs. And what I'm seeing, tell me if you're seeing this too, is that central? It used to kind of be the leaders and have to like hey, we're doing this, we're going this direction. And now they're almost often have to be more of a support arm division. They don't know what CRMs are best out there for you. There's admissions CRMs, there's advancement CRMs, there's AI driven CRMs. Now can you tell me a little bit about the struggles with that? Just that CRM space, what you've seen recently and what we can do.
[00:08:08] Guest: Yeah. So it's a blessing and a bane all in one. Right. And so at Connecticut College, we actually went from a banner system to Salesforce. Salesforce is one of the hotter things on the market right now. What we liked about it was that you had the potential to build out on the platform. But what I tell people is that you don't know what you don't know. So it's an amazing platform. We loved it, went to it. But the challenge is keeping up with the technology of the platform that you have once you have it. Because in higher ed, as you said, that relationship with it now is more about the implementation and not about the sophistication of the use of the system once you have it. So you actually still need the technical skill, the expert in that system, to be able to evolve because it's changing ever so quickly. Right. And it actually changes how you're structured as an institution based on the need that it fills. So I think that's something that I've found in higher ed that we don't necessarily think about. You spend all your time on implementation and going through the transfer from one system to another and you say, yay, great, we're here. But really the journey and the technology has just begun.
[00:09:32] Host: It seems to be going more towards, like, integrations. We have this tool. How do we integrate it? And maybe you buy a tool that you think is great and it's going to solve these problems. But what I'm seeing in the space is that there might be tools that are really good at donor management, but maybe not so good at email. And so if you try to buy this best of breed that does everything, then you're kind of stuck as a monolithic solution. And how do you balance the challenge of having too many solutions versus ones that I think just aren't utilized to their potential. Is that a problem in advancement areas?
[00:10:06] Guest: Absolutely. You've hit the nail right in the head. The CRM is kind of like the mothership, but then you have all of these other ships that are floating around it. Right. I mean, that comparison. Because Donor Relations would like one software that they see on the market that's great for marketing scholarships or endowment reports. And then your annual giving team needs a platform for a fundraising challenge, which is a different platform. And then there's a new platform that provide donor gift agreements that could be sent out and returned very quickly. Alumni Engagement wants a different platform for events that actually works for. For them. So. Yeah. So all of a sudden then you have all these disparate systems. And you're trying to figure out how they all connect because they have to connect back to that CRM in order for you to make use of that data effectively. And I find, Jeff, that professionals in higher ed don't have the technical expertise to be able to wade through that.
[00:11:07] Host: They have less and less technical expertise, I would say. A decade ago, there was teams of developers that worked on building tools, and that's not the right model anymore, number one. It's hard to keep them enough. There was brain drain that started 12 years ago or so. So you're right. You're right on. Because of this perfect kind of storm of our economy.
I'm interested in your experience in both large and small institutions. You talk about this problem with so many tools, and how do we, you know, how do we manage so many tools? How do schools with limited resources make smart decisions about technology? Do you see any distinction between the type or size of school?
[00:11:44] Guest: Probably the distinction comes in the support that you have in your IT department and the breadth and depth of their knowledge. A lot of smaller institutions don't have that breadth or depth. And actually it's why at Mackie Strategies, we're so excited that the partnership that we have with you, because what we actually need is what you're doing, which is an independent evaluation of what's out there and what you have. Because a company can come in and sell you on their product, but the question is, how does that product relate to another? And how. What. What's the infrastructure that you have at your organization and does it make sense? So I actually think that that's what's missing in higher ed, that independent evaluation for an organization.
[00:12:28] Host: I've talked recently to different schools about, you know, these partners and consultants. A lot of them do have this unbiased, you know, they want you to succeed. They're really invested in that. They're not just trying to sell you something. They have options. And thanks for calling that out. Yeah, we are offering some new services with Nike Strategies, and it's on your new website. Like, earlier this year, you launched, just recently launched, a new website, and it looks really good. And technology is really integrated into that now. And what we're seeing, and this might kind of resonate to you, I love your thoughts on it, is that everyone's looking for new tools, but it's almost like there's never enough time spent in the planning and onboarding and, like, who's going to govern these tools? And it often goes into. Well, if we talk about content, we need to make sure. Our content in our infrastructure is ready before we add any new tools. So that's where we're starting too, with some of these offerings. AI readiness plans. Your CMS evolution. There's so many schools that are on CMSs that are 10 to 15 years old, and I think they just don't feel enough pain to change yet. It's kind of an apathetic problem. But what's your take on why higher ed? I mean, we've, we've been in it so long, you know, it seems to be, it moves pretty slow. Why are we kind of slow in higher ed to, to adopt new solutions?
[00:13:48] Guest: It's a good question and I wish I had an answer for you. I actually think it comes down to the knowledge and expertise in that world because it's always evolving and it's always changing. And as a professional, you actually need to continue to immerse yourself and understand how technologies connect with each other. I think most institutions at higher ed and clients that I work with, they know what they want to achieve, but there's just not that link that's putting it all together.
And again, I go back to, you implement a system, you start using it and you're working in it, but there's nobody working on it. And I think that's something that that's missing.
[00:14:31] Host: You talked a little bit about this earlier. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you balance the personal touch needed in donor relations. You said, like, we need that FaceTime. How do you balance that, that need for personal touch with the efficiency that technology can provide?
[00:14:48] Guest: Yeah. So I think from a donor relations perspective, what's great about the technology is you can get an immediate thank you out. Right. So a donor makes a gift online, they get an immediate thank you. There's ways that we can digitize reports that used to take months, now can take weeks to get in somebody's hand. So again, I think that piece is important, but we actually make sure that we're mentoring our team members to follow up personally. Right. And even if it's literally, even if you get, you have five people that have given, you can send a quick yam that's personalized. Right. You can use tools to do that. I also, I'm still a little bit old fashioned picking up the phone where it's necessary. They've already gotten your thank you. Right. So that next phone call that you're getting, they're like, wow, I got a thank you and I got a phone call. And I think it's just teaching folks within their portfolio, how to prioritize those things.
[00:15:47] Host: Have you heard any of those AIs making phone calls now?
[00:15:50] Guest: I haven't heard them, but one of my clients that I'm working with is actually hiring a digital gift officer position for giving and engagement. And we're actually interested to see how this position will help engage this younger generation who literally is a digital generation.
[00:16:15] Host: I've never been quite an early adopter thinking that's can't think of any use cases where yeah and AI really can. Can do this. But I've heard some in the last two months I think where it's pretty incredible what what's happening. So someday, yeah, it's finding that balance.
[00:16:33] Guest: Right. Because I love podcasts and I listen to podcast, but now I actually have to go down and scroll through and see if the content was AI generated. Right. And so I think there are really good things with AI, but I think we just need to be careful and thoughtful.
[00:16:50] Host: NotebookLM, which is a Google product, just came out with a tool that will create a podcast out of a document. And I was showing Pete Mackey at Mackie Strategies. I haven't listened to one and it's mind blowing and I thought, you know, for podcasts you really do want to know who the people are behind the mic. So I don't think that's like I don't want to listen to an AI podcast unless the way or the way I was using it was for me to summarize the UN report on AI while I'm riding my bike. I don't want them to read it to me. I'm not into audible books. I want them conversing about it. So there's ways to use it, but we'll see how that evolves. I have a quite you mentioned personalization a little bit and it reminded me of a story I have for you and the listeners who are in the advancement space. My wife is alma mater is somewhere where I used to work. I donated to the same alma mater but she got her undergrad or her grad degree and her second grad degree at the school. And so we're on the list for donations and when we get the mail from the advancement team, it says to Mr. And Mrs. Jeff Dillon and that drives her crazy. She said I'm the one that went to school there. You gave them $100 once. Why are they sending a Jeff? I'm in personalization. Just be careful with it. Like really look at your data. I just think it's a somewhat of relevant story.
[00:18:07] Guest: Yeah, well, you Know, and that's interesting because each institution is different, Right. So I've worked at initially all women's institutions. Right. And those alums oftentimes like to be addressed with their given name and their married name. Now you have a younger generation that doesn't want the Mrs. Or the Ms. On it. Right. Just a first name, second name. So you actually always have to be thinking about your institution and your constituency and how to address them. But yes, that Mr. And Mrs. Sometimes doesn't fly.
[00:18:41] Host: Just not having her first name on there was the issue. And it's like how passionate that people might be about that little thing matters, you know.
[00:18:48] Guest: But then it comes back to technology, right. About how are you pulling that data out for that letter and do you have the data set up appropriately to do it correctly?
[00:19:00] Host: Right.
So what advice would you give to advancement folks who are feeling overwhelmed by new technology requirements in their role?
[00:19:09] Guest: Well, I would tell them right away to bring in Jeff Dillon to do an assessment. That's a no brainer. No, seriously, I mean, I think you actually need to take a holistic approach to technology. And with several clients that I'm working with now, that's actually what we do. We're actually one of the strategic goals for this client is to actually look at technology and take a holistic approach. And sometimes it might be that a certain department wants this really shiny new tool, but it doesn't make sense. And there's another way that we can use a tool that we have. So I think as a leader in advancement, it's really important that you're at the 30,000 foot level and making sure that you're looking across all, not only all departments, but the institution. Right. In terms of that piece too. And consult with folks who actually have the knowledge that can help you get to where you want to go.
[00:20:01] Host: Yeah, I love that advice.
Do you have any great success stories or maybe flops you could talk about in, in your experience in, in Advancement over, over the years?
[00:20:14] Guest: A flop story? Well, I'll tell you a flop story, which is really pretty funny. It goes back to old technology, which is this is before, a little bit before the Internet. It was literally 1991. I was working at my alma mater. We were doing a famous speaker was coming to campus and we only had a limited number of tickets and this was a time when you literally, you sent out a postcard that told people the number to call and the first hundred thousand, whatever it was, got the tickets. Right. So we said, well, we need a dedicated phone line. So we had A phone line in the back of our office that no one ever used for incoming calls. So we thought, okay, great, we'll take this number, we'll, we'll put that number on. We'll have a dedicated person sit on that line. So the postcards went out and the day came and then all of a sudden we got a call from this very kind older woman who said, I'm getting some phone calls about tickets for an event. And so what we didn't realize is that the area code on campus was different than the area code outside of campus. So literally this 80 year old woman was going to get hundreds of phone calls. And at that point you can't send a quick email out, right? You actually have to send a postcard out, whatever. So we worked with her, we worked with the phone department. But that was a blunder of technology at that point. But what I would say in terms of something that's helped Positively, I think CRMs today just in general allow for stronger, more effective philanthropic work because of the data that you have at your fingertips in terms of, of, of a person and their relationship with a college. And I think that has actually helped institutions become better philanthropic organizations.
[00:22:04] Host: Yeah, yeah, agreed. I was thinking with the 80 year old lady, it's like, could we be a new contractor here for a few weeks? And that's kind of funny.
[00:22:11] Guest: She was happy to take the calls, but we just didn't think that was the best approach. But that's kind of an old fashioned blood. But those things still happen. Those things still happen today where you pull an Excel file for a mailing and somehow in the reading of the list, the Excel file gets mixed where, you know, a column drops down and then all of a sudden you're sending to Jeff Dillon, but it's coming to Kim Verstandic.
[00:22:33] Host: Right. I don't have too many horror stories with my personal life, but basically when I was a webmaster, back in the day, when one person did everything, I was responsible for sending out the president's email blasts. But there was someone past me that would look at him too. I wasn't the only one. But I, I misspelled president from the office of the president. I've transposed like the S and the I, and I just felt like, oh my God, am I going to lose my job over this? But luckily someone else missed it too. But it was so embarrassing to misspell the word president. Not that big a deal right now.
[00:23:02] Guest: You laugh like, yeah, we're human. But I want to say AI makes mistakes Too. It's not a perfect world in that sense, but.
[00:23:09] Host: And you mentioned some, you know, we keep talking about CRMs, but what would you say is the one technology tool or capability that every advancement office absolutely needs to have today?
[00:23:20] Guest: It's a CRM. It's a really good CRM that fits your needs. And it's not about what I would say. I'm a data person, I love data. So I want to be able to access data, I want to be able to look at data a bunch of different ways. And so for the CRM, it's not just about for those folks who are on the back end of the CRM, but it's the end user use that's really, really important. And so for me it's does it fulfill both of those? Does it do the back end work? But for example, as a frontline fundraiser, am I able to access that information at my fingertips? And today usually most institutions you have a CRM, it's the first thing you open. Right. You see who gave in the last day, you see where you are towards your goals, those kinds of things and that makes you more effective and efficient. So I think that is an essential tool.
[00:24:15] Host: Right. Well, we have a few minutes left and I want to tell everybody I don't have any clients that are CRMs. There's no companies paying me for this information. But I thought maybe talk a little bit about the CRMs that you might be familiar with and I want to throw one out to you and see if you've heard of it.
[00:24:32] Guest: Yep.
[00:24:32] Host: But I've been really impressed with this company called element 451. I haven't an AI driven CRM and I think they're going to take over. They got a $175 million investment a few months ago and they're AI driven.
[00:24:46] Guest: Oh wow.
[00:24:47] Host: It's pretty incredible. So you want to check them out. I'm familiar with Slate and Anthology, I think, and there's so many CRMs out there, but a lot of them are not higher ed focused and so they're trying to break into the space. You have any tips or advice on CRMs you've seen that worked or I've.
[00:25:02] Guest: Worked pretty much with most of the most common ones in Advancement, Razor's Edge, Blackbaud, Ellucian advance and Salesforce. And you're right, Salesforce, when we brought that to Connecticut College, was just emerging into the higher ed market because it was more of a sales tool for sales companies. So compare them to each other. Right. But also it's what is it that you need? What is your goal? What do you need in a system? And understanding your business needs is first and foremost. When you're looking at the technology and then compare them, they all do one, one or two things really well. None of them will do everything that you need all in one.
[00:25:44] Host: Yeah, that's a great point. Like we'd almost have to have a separate podcast. And here's what they do well, like Salesforce can do everything, but so much effort you got to put into it. Well, that was really fun talking to you, Kim.
[00:25:56] Guest: You too, Jeff.
[00:25:57] Host: We'll have links to the resources to Mackie Strategies and to Kim's LinkedIn in the show Podcast Notes. So great having you.
[00:26:07] Guest: Thanks. Have a great day.
[00:26:09] Host: You too.
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