Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Guest: Let's go to some of the sites that currently have AI powered tools and search and see how it works. He's like, okay, cool. So we open a couple of websites that I know. Our colleges already have implemented those AI tools and we're searching and the experience was super, super frustrating. It was so slow and was constantly saying looking for information, pulling the resources you're asking for. We did not get answers to many of the questions we asked will left frustrated. So key takeaway, if you do implement tools like this, make sure they're fast and they actually answer the questions that students might be looking for.
[00:00:45] Host: Welcome to the EdTechConnect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education. We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators and solution providers who are transforming the learning landscape. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in.
Welcome to the show everybody. Today I am excited, excited to have Maya Dameshkovich. She is a seasoned marketing strategist with over 15 years of experience in higher ed, higher ed, digital strategy and social media. As the chief Marketing Officer at Carroll Community College and founder of College Crusader, she specializes in helping institutions maximize their impact with efficient, data driven marketing. Maya has worked across public, private and for profit institutions bring a deep understanding of how students engage with digital content. She's a frequent Guestt regional and national conferences and is known for her insights on SEO, social media management and student centric marketing. And she also hosts her own podcast, the Hidden Gem Podcast, which highlights success stories from community colleges across the country. With a doctorate in business administration and a passion for blending strategy with creativity, Maya's work is all about making marketing more effective, efficient and engaging for students. She's recently written about how Gen Z searches for information and how colleges must adapt to these evolving behaviors. Today, I'm excited to dive into her latest research and explore what's next in higher ed digital marketing. Welcome, Maya.
[00:02:41] Guest: Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:43] Host: Yeah, well, your career spans higher ed, marketing, consulting, digital strategy. What led you into this field?
[00:02:51] Guest: Well, I think my journey into higher ed was kind of personal and I first came to the United States as an exchange student and then later as an international student for college. Something I couldn't even imagine, you know, living outside of United States. And that experience really shaped how I see education and the power the education has and it does open doors and it changes lives and it creates those opportunities. It certainly created opportunities for me. And that I think keeps me passionate about education and working in higher ed, marketing. I mean, I could tell you a little bit about my background, but I don't know how much you want to spend on it.
[00:03:34] Host: Well, that's a great start. I'm sure we'll get more into it as we go here. What piqued my interest about you too is we've been to some conferences together and we've kind of overlapped here and there. But you recently wrote a piece, did some research on some how students discover content, how people search for information.
I'd love you to talk a little bit about what you uncovered and what surprised you most about that data.
[00:03:57] Guest: Okay. Yeah. So if anyone wants to see it, it's on LinkedIn. I post it as a newsletter. But the day before I published this article, our associate director of digital marketing and strategy popped into my office and she's like, I want you to meet our new student ambassador. And you know, she casually said, I discovered something interesting. Like I was talking to him and he said something that's very interesting and that piqued my interest. And I'm like, okay, well I want to meet the student and come on in and let's talk about it. So it turns out Allie, who is managing our social media student ambassadors, she gave this student an assignment to go to the website and create content for social media around short term career training.
So the student went to the website and he's sharing his kind of takeaways. What he said was, your website has so much great information, but it's a lot and it's very overwhelming and it's not easy to find. And he's like, when I talk to my friends, I realized that most of them don't even try browsing websites. What they do is they go to Google, they type in college name, whatever they're looking for, and Google gives them the link to that page. So essentially they would say, carroll Community College library, and then go straight to that page. So that kind of struck my interest, this insight. And I'm like, okay, well, I kind of do it the same way.
My behavior is very similar to the behavior of students because I don't click around when I know what I need, I go straight to Google or now I go to ChatGPT, I ask for it, it gives me the link, I go straight to the website.
This behavior is not necessarily new. It's not something I uncovered in this conversation, but it's one of those behaviors and everyday habits that most people I think have, but it's often overlooked when designing websites or creating user experiences.
This insight is kind of funny because it seems obvious once you recognize it, but it's not always top of when someone points out it to you, you're like, yeah, that makes sense. That's how I do it. And I was curious to see if there's data that can support this behavior. So I went to our GA4 and Google search console and I pulled some data and what I discovered that it does support this Trend. And about 50% of our web traffic comes from organic search. And most people use Google to search for information in our case. So of those who search on Google, about 25% of them search for Carroll Community College. So just the name of the college, Quick question.
[00:06:52] Host: And when you say Google, do you mean they're going to like commercial google.com or the Google embedded on their site on google.com? yeah. Okay.
[00:06:59] Guest: So they go on google.com and 25% of them get to the website by typing in the name of the college. 50% of those who use google.com, they use long term branded keywords. For example, Carroll Community College catalog Carroll Community College scholarships. And the branded keywords peak especially during the start of the semester when new students are coming in and they're trying to acclimate themselves to the college experience, searching for those resources. And then I kind of looked around to see if there's additional research and I did find that Gen Z in general use longer searches. So they type in on average 4.9 words in google.com because they want very specific information and they want it fast. They want a direct route with minimal effort.
This insight reinforced for me the importance of optimizing for search and not just for prospective students, community and audiences, but also for current students. Current students who are enrolled at your college. They come on the first day of school and they're trying to find their way around. So that was the insight from this discussion.
[00:08:16] Host: So I have so much to talk to you about this. You start off with like, we had some students do this and I love that because that's often what can get the ear of the administration or you know, you may ask for something, you know you need it as a director or something. But having students actually kind of tell you was great. I did this back in 2018 where we were doing a big web redesign and we created a student governance group that would come in and do a focus group, tell us how they're finding things. And that's when it clicked for me when I asked them we would do things like, hey, find where this event is being held on campus. And we start them on the campus homepage. And the answer was on the homepage. But they would go to the search. They weren't looking at the homepage at all. It was. And I learned right then that I think we've almost been trained if we've been in this industry longer or you know, it could be a generational thing that your navigation is how people should find things and search is kind of back up. And I felt like we haven't quite come out of that. Someone once told me like how do I find this information on campus? And they tell me just search for it like here. And I almost thought that was a. Back in the day that was a bad answer. Like that seems like you're sending me on a goose chase if you're sending me to search. But now that should be a valid answer. Just it's the top result on our search because we have so many Personas we're trying to satisfying our site. So I love that you talk to students.
[00:09:32] Guest: I would make a comment about that. I usually say that the students homepage is not your college's homepage, it's Google. And that's a shift in how we think about where they start and how they get to the content on your website.
[00:09:46] Host: Right? Totally. And I'm doing some research. We're doing some pretty deep original research right now that'll be released in about six weeks or so. But on the side I've done my own where I've talked to a couple dozen clients and you know, I think you've discovered this. It's true that a lot of students are going to google.com, but a good chunk and the percentage is, you know, anywhere from 10 to 80%. It's hard to nail down. Are using the search embedded on your site on a college website. So it's not that they're all going to Google, it's when they come to your site, they probably have already done some research and they might be looking for something more specific. But there's still tens of thousands of searches being conducted on your campus search too. So it's just another, we got to look at all these angles. And so I'm going to do a webinar on this soon. So I just, I love getting your perspective.
[00:10:33] Guest: Well, send me an invite link, I'll join.
[00:10:36] Host: Okay. I think in your article you said one of the titles was Students are beelining rather than browsing. So how does that affect. Do you recommend. Do you see structuring websites now more around search? Are you thinking that way?
[00:10:52] Guest: Yeah. So I think the key takeaway is they want answers right away. They're not looking to browse and look for it. So if you don't give them the information upfront, they're not going to look for it or they're going to find a different way around it to find it. I was thinking about that. More and more students are now using AI tools and I was curious to see how many students actually come to our website through tools like ChatGPT, for example. And I looked at my data and for the last two weeks we had about 1% of traffic coming from ChatGPT. It's not huge, but it's a trend and I'm sure this trend is going to continue to grow. But in terms of structuring the website, I think the first step is to recognize and acknowledge this behavior and then optimize your website for search engines specifically around those keywords that students are searching for. And very often they are related to like key services and key places that they need to go, like bookstore, library, course catalog, scholarships. So making sure that students can easily find those pages using branded long term keyword searches. So I would say that's first.
[00:12:05] Host: What data are you, are you gathering and using right now from your search? Are you using any of that for strategic decision making?
[00:12:14] Guest: Well, we use Google Analytics. Yes. And use Google Console and we have some dashboards that we've built using this.
[00:12:20] Host: Data, like top keywords and things like that.
[00:12:22] Guest: Oh yeah, we can definitely see top keywords not only on Google but also on our website search. And our website search is powered by Google. So yeah, I think once you kind of take the first step and optimize your website for those key branded searches, then you need to improve your on site search. Right. Make it fast, predictable. I'm not saying we have it on my website, so I'm not an expert on this, but I do know it's really important for students because it's very much used and if it's not fast, user friendly, they're going to abandon it. So very interesting. When I was speaking to the same student that I mentioned in the beginning, I said, well, would you be more likely to use AI powered search if we had it on our website? He's like, yeah, probably. I'm like, okay, let's go to some of the sites that Currently have AI powered tools and search and see how it works. He's like, okay, cool. So we opened a couple of websites that I know our colleges already have implemented those AI tools and we're searching and the experience was super, super frustrating.
It was so slow and was constantly saying, looking for information, pulling the resources you're asking for. We did not get answers to many of the questions we asked and we left frustrated. So key takeaway, if you do implement tools like this, make sure they're fast and they actually answer the questions that students might be looking for.
[00:13:55] Host: That is great advice because I have done the same thing recently and it's almost like we're using it personally and it's a fun tool to play with. But when we ask a school, like, well, what are you really trying to do? There's not a great answer that like a core search technology can't help you with. We want relevant, accurate results fast. So, yeah, I love that you discovered that.
[00:14:18] Guest: Yeah. And especially frustrating when you sit there and you can see it searching. Like, it's even telling me, I'm searching for information to answer your question. And I'm like, okay.
[00:14:29] Host: Something I want to dive a little deeper into. Like, once the students land on your site, you know, we know a lot of them are searching google.com but a good chunk are will find your search on your campus homepage. I've discovered this scenario where students might search for business or communications or marketing, or they're looking for a degree, but in those search terms, they often will get the business office at the school. So what we've done is we've mixed up the results of all the administrative offices with the academic programs. And we as administrators can look at the results and say, oh, that's obviously this, but a student, it's very challenging with some of these, I would say, more basic search tools. Do you have you run into that at all? Have you seen that?
[00:15:11] Guest: I think in Google Search, we can prioritize which pages we want to show for which keywords. So if they're looking for business, we want them to see like business program first. And then we also have tabs where we show academic searches, then we show continuing education searches, and then we show catalog searches just so they can differentiate between the different types of pages. So we found that's helpful. But again, you have to spend time optimizing it and making sure that the right searches come to the top.
[00:15:44] Host: If you're doing the tabbed faceted structure, you're kind of ahead of the game. I think most Schools are not quite.
[00:15:53] Guest: And then speaking of the website navigation, especially for current students, and I think many colleges are doing it, is having quick links readily available on the homepage. So we called our quick links page my Carol and it's one of the top searched keywords on Google because people want to get to that page, right? So they know it exists, but it's on the homepage, it's at the top, but they still search for it. And then I would say that continually use Google Analytics data to improve and see what are the searches they're looking for. And if you're not able to optimize or maybe your page is not showing up in Google yet for the keywords you're looking for, I think especially during the registration time and first few weeks of the semester, I think it's helpful to use pay per click and then target those branded keywords and show the site links to the most important resources you want students to go to if you're not showing up for those pages.
[00:16:52] Host: Social media is often seen as a competitor to search engines. How do you see the role of TikTok and Instagram evolving in higher ed marketing?
[00:17:03] Guest: I think that's a great question and I think there are some nuances to it. But we're hearing more and more that Gen Z prefers searching on platforms like TikTok. For example, right. Recent study in 2024 from Forbes Advisor said that 45% of Gen Z prefer platforms like TikTok compared to 35% of millennials. And when I saw those findings, I was kind of surprised because I personally find it's super challenging to search on TikTok and Instagram. I don't know. Have you tried searching on those platforms?
[00:17:38] Host: I'm not too much Instagram a little bit, but.
[00:17:40] Guest: Okay, no. But for me personally, it's not easy, especially if you know what you're looking for. So I'm like, this must be defined better what they mean by search. And I realized that when they say searching on social media, it means discovering new information, right? So social media is for discovery, but if they know what they want, then they go to search engines for retrieval of this information.
So that's the nuance that I think is not obvious in this particular study. So it makes sense for students to go to social media to search for information like inspiration for dorm design or travel abroad, or looking for testimonials from students from different colleges. But if they want to find financial aid information requirements or scholarship opportunities, social media is not the best way to find it. And it's actually very challenging. So they would go to Google or ChatGPT or other tools to search. So I would say in this case, it's important to meet students where they are at every stage of their journey and every channel has a purpose in this journey. So during the enrollment decision process, I would use TikTok and Instagram to inspire, inform, spark curiosity about your programs and your college. Once the students are on campus, I would use social media to to help with retention efforts to make sure they know the deadlines that are coming up, they get the information they need to continue their studies, they feel like they're part of the community. So I actually did a presentation about how to use social media for retention. So if anyone is interested, send me a message on LinkedIn. I'll be happy to share the presentation. But it's another overlooked channel for retention. Many people use it for attracting students, but not so much for retaining them.
[00:19:35] Host: That's a great strategy. I love those ideas. So you might get some people contacting.
[00:19:39] Guest: You, happy to share. But so I think in this case it's a compliment, right? You use search for one purpose, social media for another, and they complement each other to help the student through their journey.
[00:19:51] Host: You have a lot of experience in SEO. I feel like you're kind of known for that. With AI coming with, you're talking about search and marketing. Do you emphasize that? Not just for prospective students, but for current students as well. And what are schools getting wrong with SEO?
[00:20:10] Guest: Still, it's interesting. My career actually started as a search engine optimization specialist.
[00:20:17] Host: I knew I was onto something there many years ago.
[00:20:20] Guest: I remember when Rent Fishkin was starting Moz and it was all new and exciting, so I was doing SEO. But what do schools get wrong? I don't think they're getting anything wrong except that they simply are not doing it. They're not doing it because they don't have the resources. Many schools don't have an SEO specialist on their staff because it's too specialized. They might not be monitoring the data or not have an expert on staff. And it's time consuming, I think. It's not that they don't get it, they get it. It's just hard for them to do it because of the resources. And they don't prioritize it for that particular reason.
So I think that's.
[00:21:06] Host: I have a theory too, that more and more schools I talk to, you know, 10, 15 years ago, we implemented all these great content management systems because the webmaster couldn't keep up with just publishing content. And now we're kind of victims of our own success with thousands and thousands of pages with not great governance. So even if we kind of got better at SEO, we have to get rid of these pages or optimize these pages and that content has to get deprioritized or removed. And I'm kind of proposing to a lot of schools that's the starting point, is an audit of your content and have a real evaluation of everything you have out there as a start to your SEO.
[00:21:47] Guest: But again, that's so time consuming, right?
[00:21:50] Host: Yeah, they can't. It's a resource constraint there too.
[00:21:53] Guest: Yeah. And I'm curious what's going to happen with the websites as AI tools kind of evolve. And you know, we can hypothesize right now, but I don't think the websites are going to go anywhere. I think the websites are still going to stay and be like the hub of information that AI is going to pull from. And what might change is how students enter your website or how they find information about your particular school. So they might find information from Google, for example, when Google is showing those AI driven results at the top of the page now or other tools. And I was reading recently about marketers complaining that they're getting lower click through rate on their Google Ads because users are getting the information that they need without even visiting the website because Google is pulling the information at the top of the page.
So it's going to be interesting to see how that's going to evolve.
[00:22:53] Host: Remember when this first came out and I heard a podcast, the Hard Fork Podcast by the New York Times is one of my favorite podcasts and they brought that up right away that like this is going to really hurt Google's model.
[00:23:04] Guest: Well, but I'm sure Google is smart. They need to make money so they'll find a way around it.
[00:23:10] Host: I agree. I want to talk a little bit about community colleges. You've really carved a space out for yourself. You founded College Crusader to help community colleges with digital strategy. Do you see any differences with what community colleges face from the marketing lens?
[00:23:25] Guest: I think for most higher ed institutions I see there are two big challenges. One is limited resources like we talked about. And the second one is the conceptual gap in understanding of marketing by leadership. You know, many leaders don't see marketers as strategic partners. They don't allocate the needed resources. They don't understand how marketers can support enrollment, retention, community engagement for their institution. So the first problem, limited resources, I'm addressing with College Crusader and the second one with The Hidden Gem podcast where I talk about and provide examples on how marketers and communicators can actually move the needle and make the impact and be the strategic partners that the college needs. And with the college crusader. I started by serving community colleges first because I'm passionate about what we do and one of the problems that we solve is limited resources. And we started with focusing on social media first because for me personally, I think social media is one of the most cost effective channels for recruitment, retention, community building, and it's highly underutilized. One of the most popular products we have is a subscription service where community colleges can subscribe to get monthly content ready to publish for their Instagram, Facebook and they also get scripts for TikTok videos and Instagram videos. So all they have to do is kind of review the content, adjust it for their brand voice, add their own photos, hand off those scripts to students to kind of record and it saves tons of time and it's a lot more cost effective than hiring someone. And the great thing about community colleges is we're not competing, right? Each community college serves their own county. So it just doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel if we are providing the kind of similar service. And speaking of social media being time consuming, I have created a calculator. I'm not sure if you saw it, but I created this social media resource calculator. It's completely free, it's on my website. It's actually one of the most popular pages on my website because people actually do use it. But it's a tool that colleges can use to estimate how much time does it require to manage each platform at a certain frequency and certain type of content. Once you identify how much time, then you can take a look at with your current resources, how much of that can you actually do in house? Then you can see where can you optimize, Maybe by adding student ambassadors to the mix or maybe involving faculty and staff in your content creation. And how will that save you time and resources? So we can probably link to it in show notes.
[00:26:21] Host: We will. That sounds really useful. We will put a link to that in the show notes. And one more question for you. For professionals looking to break into higher ed marketing, what skills and knowledge do you think would be most valuable in the coming few years for that?
[00:26:38] Guest: I think it's all about being curious and being proactive. I think the field is going to change so fast that if you're not curious, if you're not exploring, if you're not learning, you are going to stay and stay behind. So I would focus on learning how to use data, data analysis, how to ask good questions, how to get those customer insights and be able to apply them in your marketing efforts and then not be afraid to experiment because I think that's the best thing you can do.
[00:27:12] Host: I love that advice. Sometimes you are afraid to experiment in higher ed, but hopefully your environment where you can. And as far as asking good questions, I'm not going to talk too much about AI, but I feel like that's what AI has helped me with. The better question you can ask, the better results you're going to get. So I love that advice. But thank you Maya. We're going to have all the links to Maya's profile and content in the show notes and it was great to have you on the show.
[00:27:37] Guest: Thanks Jeff. Was fun.
[00:27:42] Host: We wrap up this episode remember anything EdTech Connect is your trusted companion on your journey to enhance education through technology. Whether you're looking to spark student engagement, refine edtech implementation strategies, or stay ahead of the curve in emerging technologies, EdTech Connect brings you the insights you need. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an inspiring and informative episode. And while you're there, please leave us a review. Your feedback fuels us to keep bringing you valuable content. For even more resources and connections, head over to edtechconnect.com your hub for edtech reviews, trends and solutions. Until next time, thanks for tuning in.
