Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Guest: One specifically is for a German class where the student can interact with the agent and talk and have a conversation, which, you know, we're looking at seeing potentially if we can scale that with other languages.
[00:00:16] Host: Welcome to the EdTechConnect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon, and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education.
We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators and solution providers who are transforming the learning landscape. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in.
[00:00:52] Host: Gemma Garcia is the Executive Director of Learning Technology in the office of the University Provost at Arizona State University, where she leads strategy and implementation for the digital learning systems that serve more than 130,000 learners worldwide.
During her 26 year ASU career, she's guided everything from early learning lab pilots to enterprise level online program design, partnering with colleges across the university to bring fresh ideas from concept to launch.
Known for helping faculty translate bold pedagogical visions into practical, engaging courses, Gemma champions inclusive design and data informed decision making. Bilingual in English and Spanish, she also keeps a global perspective on access and equity. When Gemma is not scouting the next learning tech frontier, she's mentoring colleagues on how to turn big ideas into sustainable practice. In her current role, she leads learning technology implementation and is responsible for strategic planning and implementation of learning technologies and digital initiatives.
Hi Gemma, welcome to the show.
[00:02:01] Guest: Hey, thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
[00:02:04] Host: So I'm really curious. ASU is kind of a lighthouse for higher ed as far as technology. You've been there so long. What first sparked your interest in instructional technology back when you were, you know, a technical communication major at asu?
[00:02:19] Guest: I actually really got into technology, believe it. When I was like 1980s, my dad was really into technology. He was a professor at ASU and actually opened a computer lab in the School of Music.
So I was exposed to technology really young.
I loved it from the beginning when I started and my dad was one person that was like, hey, go. And I'd be like, oh, I don't think. Go check it out, go try it. And so I actually went to a computer camp. I think when I was about six years old, I was very privileged recognizing I had access to technology when technology wasn't readily available.
I've always had roles working on technology, but then as I grew older, I really developed this skill of being Able to translate how to use technology to end users who don't know how to use it. I was able to bridge the gap of I love the technology and exploring new things, but I also like helping support people using the technology.
And so in my positions at asu, they've all been really focused on faculty support and helping faculty use new technology integrated into their teaching and learning.
And I actually am not a traditional student. So I went to school for a little bit and then I had to stop going to school. I started a family and then once I was able to manage a job and kids, I went back to school school and was doing a in person program at the time, which is really hard because they offer classes, you know, you have to either do the morning or they, you know, late. And then when ASU actually offered the program that I graduated and I went online and was able to finish. And then I went to the Northern Arizona University to get my master's, which I also did online.
[00:04:11] Host: Well, we have a commonality there. That's where I got my master's online is as Nautilus.
[00:04:15] Guest: Oh, okay, cool.
[00:04:17] Host: So I was one of the first cohorts for the Master of Administration program back in the early 2000s, so our career is very, very similarly overlapped. I left higher ed about four years ago, but I would have been about the same tenure as you. So I've seen this evolution of technology, especially in higher ed. How has your view of digital learning shifted during these couple decades?
[00:04:44] Guest: Well, it's been really interesting and I feel very, you know, blessed to be able to see how online learning and digital learning has transformed over time.
Like, you know, we both have been in. So we've seen kind of the different phases from like, what is this? To experimentation of like, okay, when there's not a lot of research and then as more research is coming out, like how we're transforming and thinking about how we're creating these learning experiences for students. And so I've seen, you know, ASU focused on digital learning, distance learning at the time, distance learning at the start, you know, where it was like a very small group and we're trying to figure out like what's the best approach, what works. Well, how are students learning to now, you know, we have Ed plus at asu, which is a very large group.
I think they said 800 staff, you know, 800 group of people that are working with the university and faculty on developing, you know, online programs, online courses.
So seeing it grow the way that it has. But then also I think there's Also that focus on the impact.
You know, I don't know if I would have been able to finish school as quickly as I did if I didn't have access to online education.
Just that access idea of providing access to. To anyone who wants to learn, it's just been. It's been incredible. And it's incredible to see how our university is transformed.
[00:06:11] Host: Yeah. It's funny you say distance learning. I think many people wouldn't even know what that meant because that's what it was first called. I remember that, like, NAU was big in distance learning.
Now we call it so many different things. It's almost just learning now because everyone's doing it. But ASU is known for.
For scale. How do you balance this bold experimentation with the practical realities of supporting thousands of faculty and students?
And what. What.
I guess I'll start with that. Like, how do you. How do you balance, like this innovation at a huge school?
[00:06:45] Guest: So I think because ASU has kind of been in the space of scaling for many years, I think we're accustomed to looking at technical solutions, technology solutions, resources, at understanding that you need to be scalable. And so sometimes there are some really great innovations, but they're not scalable. And so we kind of think through, like, how can we modify this so it would be scalable? Of course, there's always challenges with scaling at asu. I guess from before President Crow, which I was there for a couple years at the university before President Crow, where things were just managed slightly different.
There wasn't the idea of education, access to all. We didn't have the charter. And I think over the years with President Crow really talking about the access mission, everything that we do, we want to do something that is scalable, that can provide access to our faculty and our students.
The idea, yes, it is challenging to think about things at scale, especially when sometimes it's easier to think at scale smaller, like a smaller micro level.
But I think at asu, we're just kind of. That's just the mindset of everything that we do needs to be scalable because. Because of the access. Right. The idea of access for all.
[00:08:09] Host: You bring up a good point. I don't talk about it enough in that schools that excel in so many areas, especially technology, really need strong leadership. And Michael Crowe is like one of the leaders of all leaders of universities. And even, you know, I know Gordon Wishon isn't the CIO anymore, but he was one that everyone looked up to as well. Now it's Lev Gonick. So it's a great point. ASU's always had some really strong leaders in, you know, at the presidency, but also in the, you know, in the information technology side, I would say, I.
[00:08:39] Guest: Think also just really quick to add that I think the leadership and the way that, you know, LEV works with the provost office and with President Crow, we don't see that, you know, very often where the IT leaders are really wanting to align with the provost office and the academic areas. And there's a lot of strong alignment in a lot of the work that we're doing. So then that way we're able to scale some of the initiatives and some of the things, like I talked about it at the Chronicle panel about the AI and how we're able to advance AI innovation and teaching learning so rapidly. And that's, I think, the alignment across with all the leadership.
[00:09:17] Host: Well, ASU is always at the forefront and even, I think, one of the first largest schools to announce their partnership with OpenAI. It's almost two years ago now, something like that. What recent learning technology rollout are you most proud of and what did the pilot phase of that teach you?
[00:09:35] Guest: So we have a lot of different tools that roll out. I would say the one that I most recently, I think it's the AI challenge with a ChatGPT OpenAI. I think that was kind of see how this works and let's see if we have interest. And I think it was really surprising, actually. I was surprised, but yet I wasn't surprised. Some of the proposals, you know, they were very innovative, thinking way outside the box. Some of the things were not like we couldn't do them technically at the time. But it was good to see where the faculty and staff were thinking that they're thinking so creatively and innovatively about AI. It kind of set the perspective of like, okay, this people are really thinking about the potential, whether it's technically feasible at this time or not. But then there were also some really great practical innovations that actually were like that. They've been implemented in and tested in classes.
One specifically is for a German class where the student can interact with the agent and talk and have a conversation, which we're looking at seeing potentially if we can scale that with other languages.
So, I mean, there's a lot of, like, really high in the sky ideas which are really cool to think that, you know, to know that we have faculty and students and staff that are thinking, like, huge. That's not necessarily a rollout, but I think it was.
Let's put this out. Let's make this tool available. Let's give them a safe wall off access to ChatGPT, and let's see what the outcomes are.
[00:11:11] Host: You know, I think too often innovation is shunned a little bit in higher ed, and now you can't. You just have to embrace it at some level with, with AI and the. The speed of adoption. But that was part of the reason, one of the reasons I left higher ed. It was just too hard to, like, do the things I really wanted to do. And it was difficult. But you mentioned faculty. Faculty adoption can really make or break a new tool.
How do you win over skeptical faculty if you, okay, we're deciding we are going to do this. They think their old way is just fine. How do you deal with that?
[00:11:44] Guest: You know, I've worked with all different types of faculty. Faculty are like, yay, just tell me what I need to do and like, I'll do it to, okay, I'm not sure to like, no way.
And I think it's really one. And I think I said this in the panel, the Chronicle panel is like meeting faculty where they are. And maybe not all faculty are going to be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go all in on a tool. But stepping back is thinking about principled innovation where why are we using a particular tool? Right? We use this framework for everything at ASU of thinking, like, what is the reason why we're using this tool? And I think if we can clearly state to faculty the benefit to the student outcomes, the learning, the engagement, you start that with that type of a conversation, like, what problem are we trying to solve versus, hey, there's this cool tool. Like, everyone's using it. You got to do it too.
How is it going to benefit the student and their outcomes? And then depending on what type of tool, does this also help the faculty?
And how is it going to benefit? And depending on what type of tool, it may be something where a faculty member wants to take baby steps, right? And that's okay. Got to meet faculty where they are. I've never been one. Like, if you force a faculty member to use something that they're not sure about it, sometimes they can be problematic for the student experience, right?
If a student is trying to use a tool and it's not working, right? And the faculty member is like, well, yeah, I'm just using this tool. And so that's. That's kind of my approach when I've worked with faculty, meeting them where they are, identifying why this particular tool might benefit the students and their work that they do, and having a conversation Right. About their teaching and what are some of the areas they'd like to see improve?
[00:13:35] Host: Yeah, to me, I feel like it often goes to the digital governance side of things.
Most schools don't have much. Right. They don't have any rules for faculty to follow.
And sometimes it's good. Sometimes, usually it just causes a little bit of miscommunication or frustration. Because what I've seen is that if in lack of clear governance, all the decisions fall all the way down to faculty. Right? So one faculty member is doing this, one's doing this. And depending on the type of class you're in, if you're a student, you might be using AI a different way because this faculty feels a certain way about it. How has ASU implemented any digital governance?
How mature is your digital governance?
[00:14:17] Guest: I would say so we haven't made any changes in the way that we think about digital governance.
People have asked me, like, oh, what about your AI policies? Like, all of the policies apply to all of the situation. So, for example, like the academic integrity policies, like, oh, have you changed? No, that falls, you know, for any tool or anything, that policy can apply to most situations. And so I think the most changes that we've made in terms of digital governance type of thing is I think more of the security piece of that and thinking about, you know, as more and more tools that are already existing, they're implementing AI pieces in that. So, like, I think almost every product's like, hey, we are integrating AI and this and we're going to create that, like understanding, like, are the security, the level of security in terms of data, et cetera, Are there being changes being made depending on the model and the data that it's collecting? But there hasn't been overall major changes in our digital government.
[00:15:21] Host: You mentioned AI. Generative AI really has everyone buzzing now. Where do you see responsible AI fitting into course design and assessment over the next just few years?
[00:15:33] Guest: I think one of the challenges with AI is that it moves. It's moving so quickly and that's a bit difficult. Especially when we're talking about the teaching and learning and working with the faculty.
It feels like we're constantly pivoting. And I think it. Again, I'm going to go back to you. I'm going to say this probably multiple times in our conversation, like principle innovation, just because there's 100 different tools that we could use.
How are we thinking about these tools? How are these tools going to help? What's the purpose of these tools and using that framework and making the decisions right so it's not just, oh, this looks good, this looks good, this looks good, this looks good. But carefully examining, thinking about the purpose behind why we're selecting tools does sometimes feel like the wild, wild west, because we're like, once we have something developed and it's like, oh, and then this, and then this, and then this. And so that's why I think it's even more important that we stay focused on that framework. So we're thinking about how we're adopting tools responsibly, and then, you know, thinking about all of the id, the instructional designers. I think there's a lot of potential and both helping the faculty also in some of their, especially in the online courses, if there's ways to improve efficiencies on their end. And then also I can see students potentially using that in different ways for their learning. And then instructional designers and the support groups that work with faculty.
Are there tools, or can we create tools that will help instructional designers create efficiency so they can have more time to work closely with faculty on maybe larger initiatives or larger course design?
[00:17:14] Host: I'm really on the positive side of it. I think it could bring so much. I think early on, when ChatGPT first came out in November 2022, there was this panic that semester about cheating, and it was just all about, can they use this? It's out. We all accepted that.
Lee Rainey, you were on the Chronicle webinar, you know, a month or so ago with him. He had that research. And I'll get the exact research, probably a little off here, but he basically asked in the survey, like, a bunch of administrators and faculty is using a prompt to write an essay, something like that, cheating. And the answers came back, split 50, 50. You know, the question was a little more detailed than that, but it was like, that was really the right question. Asking it shows the spectrum that we have of how do we perceive this new. This new tool that we have.
Let me ask you this. You're bilingual in English and Spanish. Right.
Has that perspective shaped how you think about accessibility and inclusion in online learning?
[00:18:18] Guest: Yes, but I think it's also. I don't. I can't attribute it to just being. Because I'm bilingual. But I think it's at ASU in particular, where we are very global focused, so we have a lot of global initiatives and partnerships. And so the idea of obviously, universal design. Right. But then thinking about cultural and global design, we have a group and we actually have a vice president that focuses on the global initiatives and the global engagements and tying into that work that she does.
We're always thinking about how we can improve the experience for our global audience, as we do have a large online student population and many of them are not here in the U.S. right. So there's just thinking about the different cultural aspects also. Even within the United States. Right. There's different culture aspects of that.
And so yes, we are being bilingual. And you know, my, my husband's from Mexico.
I always had that kind of global, international aspect.
[00:19:21] Host: Yeah. When I first started using these tools, I thought, wow, this is game changing for all the people who have trouble accessing technology, number one, because if they're struggling with a second language, like this is going to get them to at least B or C level work.
Right. Like it should, if they have access and translation services, all these things that can help equalization. So I really look at it from that lens and you know, I think it sounds like you do in, in that way as well.
ASU partners with a wide range of colleges and schools. How do you foster collaboration across these units that have very different cultures external to asu?
[00:20:00] Guest: Because even internally we have different cultures.
[00:20:03] Host: You're big. ASU is big.
[00:20:05] Guest: I'll talk about both. So externally I think it's meeting colleges and universities where they are and helping them think about innovation.
I know President Crow, you know, has many visits from different universities and he visits and people have delegates of people going and visiting universities and it's kind of helping them, kind of thinks outside of the box.
I know some of our partnerships we've kind of helped with launching their or expanding their online programs, like having ED plus work with them and thinking about how to expand. I think we're charged by our president to send the message and to help other institutions transform.
But knowing like they're not asu, you know, some people say, how can we make this like asu? Well, it takes a lot of people and it takes a lot of time. But I think at ASU we're very open to sharing the work and providing like answering questions about some of the work that we're doing or if there's the need to support. Our president is very encouraging to making sure like it's as our responsibility as, as part of our charter is like to share that information, to share the work that we're doing.
And internally, lots of different colleges, I would say for some of the things we're not centralized. And so that also allows for the innovation to happen.
And I think there are very different cultures, but I actually embrace that. It's actually great to see that every college kind of has a different culture in a different way. They're thinking about things. And that's why I've been at ASU for so long, is because it's constantly changing, and I'm always learning new things. I'm a person who's like, I want to learn new things constantly. And so ASU, I feel very fortunate. Like, ASU has given me that for 27 years, where it's like, oh, this is a new thing. Let's try this out. This is something new. And having that space to try new things, that's why I really. That's why I've stayed as long as I have at asu. I just really love the culture and the innovation.
[00:22:15] Host: I think you have to embrace the diversity and the, you know, people. The negative connotation is silos. Right? We have so many silos here. We need to consolidate. We need to, like. And I think that ship has kind of sailed. Like, the largest schools are not, like, if you're a college within a large research one, you're gonna. You have your own budget, you're going to use your own tools. We got to figure out how to integrate them. And once you realize that, like, I think it makes things, hey, I'll just. I want to learn how they're. Maybe college of business is doing things better than we're doing things, or we can learn from each other. And I love that. I love that.
[00:22:44] Guest: I think that's part of my role. My response, well, I would also do it in regardless of what role is bringing the groups together, that idea of, like, people feeling siloed or they're working on things in a space and that not able to share out is creating, like, communities of practice across the university.
I lead several committees and groups where it's people from different colleges and we come together and we share. We actually launched an event called Futures of Learning Communities Folk Fest this year. It was our second year. It's an event that's designed to bring the university together to showcase what they're doing in teaching and learning. And so it's like faculty and staff, and that's the idea of breaking those. Those silos and sharing all of the great work that's happening across the university.
It's like one of those events where it's designed to be, like, super, super fun and a time where everyone can celebrate accomplishments. And we had our year two this year, and we had about 600 faculty and staff attend.
[00:23:51] Host: Wow, that's amazing. Maybe we just found our podcast episode title is ASU Breaking down silos. Love it. If you could wave a magic wand and fix one persistent barrier to better, better learning, what would it be?
[00:24:05] Guest: I think I would want to be able to have better personalized learning pathways for everyone. I think everyone learns so differently. I know this is something that ASU has been working. We've been working on like, adaptive personalized learning. And I think overall there's been advancement in that, but it's also like so many people, there's not one person learns the same way. If there could be, and I don't know, you know, that's totally. I think it's totally possible with AI and technology to make that happen. But that's. If I could wave a wand, that's what I think would have the largest impact on students. If they could. This is the way I learn bus and everything that they're learning in their college or whatever learning experience would adapt to how they best learn so they can be their best self and do.
[00:24:56] Host: The best work it's possible. I remember 20 plus years ago when I was at NAU, because I worked there too. We dabbled. Yeah, I worked. I was the first webmaster at nau.
I'm not going to say when it was because it was a long time ago, but it was back when everything was driven by access databases and things like that. But we dabbled in personalization. I think it was around 2003.
And we thought this was so cool. Like, people will come to our website. We know. Tell us what you're interested in. Like, oh, chemistry. Next time you come, you're going to see some chemistry photos on our site. And we thought it was a great idea, but it was so manual. Like, what we realized is, like, marketing would put up, like, the photos and then the chemistry department would say, those aren't the right photos. We don't have those kind of beakers or whatever. And we're like, okay, well, you manage the photos. That didn't happen. It just never. It's not scalable. Now with AI, with all these tools, it's possible. So your dream, you know, your dream could come true, I think.
Last question. Fast forward five years.
What headline would you love to read about ASU's next big digital learning breakthrough?
[00:25:57] Guest: Oh, gosh.
I'm thinking about all of the different things that everyone is working on at asu. I would like to see ASU has, like, mastered the personalized learning pathways for students, created asu. I mean, we have immersive learning experiences, but I'd like to see that expanded to other disciplines. I Don't know if you know about Dreamscape. If you ever in Arizona, come and let me know because we have that immersive VR experience for the biology chemistry classes. You'll have to come and check it out. I'm inviting you.
What else? Can I have a long, long list or just a few things?
[00:26:37] Host: Yeah, yeah, I love it. Whatever you think of. That's a good one, though.
[00:26:40] Guest: Those are my topics.
Personalized and then immersive experience.
[00:26:45] Host: Well, I might take you up on that offer. I'll probably share a little too much here, but I grew up in Tempe and I still have a lot of connections down there. Right by asu. And the only reason I didn't go to ASU is because I want to get out of the house. So I had U of A SU and NAU to choose from, and I chose because I like the mountains. So, like, I went up to nau.
[00:27:01] Guest: Oh, it is very pretty. Yeah, it is very pretty there. I mean, don't come in the summer. I don't know where you're living now, but, like, don't come in the summer. You know that.
[00:27:09] Host: Yeah, I lived there for 18 years in Phoenix, so I got used to it. And then when I left, I'm like, wow, that was kind of crazy hot.
[00:27:14] Guest: Well, I think it's gotten hotter. I mean, not to go off topic here, but I think it has gotten hotter the last five years because I've grown up here, too, and I don't remember it being this hot.
[00:27:24] Host: Well, it was great to have you on the show, Gemma. We will put links to Gemma's LinkedIn and ASU in the show Notes. Thank you for sharing your story.
[00:27:35] Guest: Thank you. Bye. Bye.
[00:27:42] Host: We wrap up this episode. Remember, EdTech Connect is your trusted companion on your journey to enhance education through technology.
Whether you're looking to spark student engagement, refine edtech implementation strategies, or stay ahead of the curve in emerging technologies, EdTech Connect brings you the insights you need. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an inspiring and informative episode. And while you're there, please leave us a review. Your feedback fuels us to keep bringing you valuable content. For even more resources and connections, head over to edtechconnect.com, your hub for edtech reviews, trends and solutions. Until next time, thanks for tuning in.
[00:28:30] Host: Sam.
