Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Guest: Where the content that you write and put out there, whether it's in an email or it's in a podcast, or it's a social media post, needs to have value that doesn't demand someone click a link and go back to your website. You can include links in there, but provide that value because that's how you're going to make that connection with the person that you're targeting and you can't assume they're going to end up on your website.
[00:00:24] Host: Welcome to the EdTechConnect podcast, your source for exploring the cutting edge world of educational technology. I'm your host, Jeff Dillon and I'm excited to bring you insights and inspiration from the brightest minds and innovators shaping the future of education. We'll dive into conversations with leading experts, educators and solution providers for transforming the learning landscape. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. So sit back, relax, and let's dive in.
Welcome to the show everybody. Today we have Joel Goodman. Joel is a trailblazer in higher ed marketing, leveraging over 15 years of experience to transform how colleges and universities approach their digital strategies. As the founder and principal of Bravery Media, Joel has built a company that specializes in crafting human centric designs and strategies to eliminate friction points and elevate digital experiences in higher ed.
Under his leadership, Bravery Media has helped institutions worldwide turn complex challenges into innovative solutions that drive enrollment, engagement and long term success. Joel's academic foundation in media studies, communication and marketing underpins his expertise in website strategy, user experience design and content strategy. His work is not just about creating websites, it's about building trust, converting visitors into students, and helping universities achieve their mission.
A former educator and co host of the Thought Feeder podcast, Joel is passionate about empowering hired ed professionals to embrace technology, stay ahead of trends, and meet the evolving expectations of prospective students. Whether solving problems or cutting edge design or sharing insights through workshops and podcasts, Joel's committed to helping universities turn their digital goals into lasting legacies. When he's not driving innovation in higher marketing, you might find him baking bread or exploring new ways to blend creativity and strategy. Welcome to the show, Joel.
[00:02:30] Guest: Thanks Jeff. Really happy to be here and can't wait to have a rousing conversation, honestly.
[00:02:37] Host: Oh yeah, we'll see where this one goes. Joel's pretty entertaining. He's done this a lot. We've been to many conferences where we've ran into each other and we've kind of shared some experiences, you know, working on college Websites. So I would like to hear, like just starting off, tell me about your journey. You're really focused on higher ed. What led you to found Bravery media? Just, gosh, 12, 13 years ago now.
[00:02:59] Guest: Yeah, so I graduated out of undergrad in 2006, right into a recession and couldn't find a job.
[00:03:07] Host: Great motivator.
[00:03:08] Guest: Managed after. Yeah, you know, after about nine months of, you know, working at Old Navy in the middle of West Virginia and, you know, having to live with my in laws and stuff, a job opening opened up at my alma mater for an assistant director PR position. I thought I could do that. Got a communication background, like I know the boss I could get in that. So I took that job because it was the best thing and six months later became a web content coordinator. Six months after that, the web developer I worked with left. And so I kind of inherited the website and ended up spending about three and a half years there. It was Greenville College is now Greenville University doing all of their web stuff. You know, every once in a while someone else would come in and help me for a little while.
[00:03:51] Host: And were you webmaster? I remember the title of webmaster.
[00:03:56] Guest: No, I was not. But the guy I worked with originally, he was the webmaster and I refused to take that title on when we, when I took his job over, I stuck with the web content coordinator thing, even though I was everything web. And so yeah, I kind of like accidentally, this was a common back then. I think there are a lot of people, at least in the, you know, the sort of class that I came up in in higher ed web, that kind of accidentally ended up doing web stuff for higher ed. And I'm definitely one of those. So I, I worked at three and a half years at Greenville College and then moved up to Trinity International University north of Chicago, worked there for two and a half years doing the same thing by myself and finished a master's degree that my master's degree in media studies through the New School in New York and did that entirely online.
And when I graduated, decided that we were, we were leaving, we were done. I felt like I had done everything I could do at Trinity. I was tired of fighting. I was burnt out. I need to do something else. And had built a good network in higher ed through conferences and everything else. And so my wife hopped on Google and this was 2012. You know, she searches where are the young people moving? And turned out it was Austin, Texas. And so we moved down to Austin in 2012 and I started Bravery because I felt like I had enough of a Network in higher ed. But then other skills that I could do. I'd been building websites for bands and restaurants and optometrists and just like random things. So, like, if the higher ed thing didn't work out, I could build websites for people, you know, figure something else out.
[00:05:24] Host: Yeah, yeah. It's good experience and transfer to many industries. So it's a pretty. Back in the day, it was a safe way to go. I think I have a similar story. So I'm interested in what you've seen even just really the last few years, or how. How you've seen higher ed evolve and over time. What's inspired you in watching this evolution kind of recently?
[00:05:42] Guest: Yeah, you know, I. I think there's. There's been a. It's all been very gradual and there are a lot of things that have changed, but probably even more things that haven't changed. A lot more things that I wish would change a little bit more. I think we're finally getting to a point where. And I. And I think probably in. In unhealthy ways we've gotten to this point, but we're getting to the point where leadership's realizing that they don't pay people enough for the work that they're doing. I think we're getting to a point where hopefully institutions are understanding the value of their websites, but I think to kind of counterbalance that, there's always a faction that kind of pulls against it in the other direction. And so I worry that those things aren't really there in the agency space. We've seen just in the last one, two years, three years, so much consolidation, so much private equity coming into our industry. I don't think those are good things in the evolution of higher ed and the work that we do necessarily. I think there are extreme challenges there. And I think kind of the, you know, there's ebbs and flows of our industry flattening out and then verticalizing again and then flattening out and then verticalizing again. So it's a lot of. I don't know, I see more cyclical things happening than really advanced progress. You know, in our industry, we still talk about the same things, same patterns, different players.
[00:06:58] Host: In a way.
[00:06:59] Guest: Yeah, we still complain about the same things. We still have the same challenges from misunderstanding of the work that we do. And, you know, it's all incremental, kind of slow progression towards hopefully a better, better way of working, a better way of thinking about the work that we do.
[00:07:16] Host: You mentioned something you said you hope institutions understand the value of their Websites. And you know, I think that's a great place to kind of focus on a little bit because my feeling, and I want you to challenge me here if you, if you think a different way. But a website itself, the way it's structured is almost not valued as much anymore. And it shouldn't be in certain ways just because you look at Google sites that came out a decade ago, you look at AI now where there's all these ways to get into your site. So it's not really about the site itself, it's more about your content. It's about like you're going to find you in so many ways.
[00:07:47] Guest: Right.
[00:07:47] Host: Do you think highride understands it that way or what's your take on that?
[00:07:51] Guest: No, I don't. And I think that, I think we pay a lot of lip service to having good content and content strategy and things like that. But the content that we write is always heavy towards the branded side of things and not as heavy towards the informational side of things, or it's just informational and devoid of any context, which is equally as bad. And so, you know, when you think about AI and how it's treating content that we have, you know, like there's a study that recently came out from SparkToro that showed that something like 60% of all Google searches do not end in a click through to the website at this point. Part of that's because of the AI snippets that are going in the, you know, the, the descriptions of, of what you have is trying to answer the question that a person has right there on the search result page. Right. And so it's kind of a double edged sword. If you weren't doing SEO already, you're not getting included in the snippets. And if you aren't going to focus on rewriting your content to be something that's parsable, readable, understandable by the LM agents that are sucking the stuff up and then creating these snippets. Then you're kind of setting yourself up for even more failure down the road. And it's really frustrating because the focus for websites is always on how good can the homepage look. Or it's about experience, sort of, it's about a misunderstanding of what user experience is. Right. Or an incomplete look at what user experience is. And I think there's a little bit of a disconnect or misunderstanding about how the work that we do matters. Like websites matter in certain contexts and it's not necessarily in someone's going to land here and Find all the stuff that they need. It could be that it's getting picked out somewhere else, but it also emphasizes this need for zero click content, which is something that Amanda Natividad from SparkToro and other places, she's brilliant. Go follow her everywhere. She's just a great follow and a very smart person, but something that she coined last year, maybe the year before, where the content that you write and put out there, whether it's in an email or it's in a podcast or it's a social media post, needs to have value. That doesn't demand someone click a link and go back to your website. You can include links in there, but provide that value because that's how you're going to make that connection with the person that you're targeting. And you can't assume they're going to end up on your website because we can't control anyone.
[00:10:18] Host: That's great advice. Yeah, yeah. I like that you mentioned, and I've seen some of your. You even built a tool around this. You mentioned that higher websites are slow, confusing. What are the biggest pain points? What are some examples you're seeing today? Like, the tool I'm talking about is, I think, a website checker you have for higher ed with a performance checker, right?
[00:10:38] Guest: Yeah. We call it speedyu. So it's speedyu Bravery Co. And that's Speedy, the letter U. You. It's a play on Eduardo or Speedy University. Anyway, I put this together because the number one, this is before the advent of all these AI snippet generators and things like that. This still helps because they use all the SEO indicators to actually indicate trust and what type of content, whose content they're going to pull up. So your fast site is still going to matter. The way that this works, you gain points if you load faster than three seconds. So the faster your website loads, the faster that it's usable by someone, the higher up you're going to rank on a search engine results page, or the higher up, basically you're going to rank in their algorithm so that anything that they're doing with search, whether that's generating snippets, generating AI summaries, whatever else your fast site is going to contribute to you being more likely to be included in those things. Beyond that, there are loads of studies that show if your website takes longer than four seconds to load, you cut your conversion rate in half. Like half of your potential conversion rate is just not going to be there because people don't wait around, you know. So if your site's Slow one. If you've got a high school student or their parent who is out looking at a couple of different schools and doing some research, if your website opens up and it's just a blank white screen for a few seconds and they've got another one that's. And you know, they'll switch over to the other tab, like, oh, that one loaded faster. Cool. They're going to ditch your site. They're not going to.
[00:12:10] Host: Is this still an issue? I just figure with all the broadband, it's like, I don't even. I probably don't think about this enough.
[00:12:16] Guest: It is still an issue. And part of that is because most of higher ed's web traffic is coming from phones. Phone speeds are faster, but, you know, not everyone is rocking an iPhone 16 Pro Max, you know, on a good WI fi network. Yeah. I mean, they could be accessing from. I mean, honestly, if you think about people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds that only have access to the Internet via their phone or live in rural areas that only have 3G or a low level of 4G, those speeds are slower for what they're doing. Or I think about during the pandemic, right, when everyone had to go study, study from home, study from wherever. There are kids that had to go do their schoolwork from McDonald's parking lot because that was the only WI fi that they could get. And that WI fi is not fast. And so if your website's loading slow on WI fi that is not fast, or on a mobile connection that's not fast, you've left that money on the table. Those people aren't going to pay attention to you. You don't care about them is what they think.
[00:13:12] Host: Yeah. I spent my career at a university through the mobile revolution. I can confirm they're doing everything on their mobile devices. I even knew some students who didn't have computers. They were writing their papers on their phones. I'm like, wow. Yeah.
[00:13:23] Guest: Yeah. I mean, when. When we look at Google Analytics for our clients, I mean, it's all over 50% mobile traffic and it only climbs every year. It's just up and up and up and up. I mean, we're getting closer to percent. And especially when you cut out internal traffic from, you know, faculty and staff that are on your websites. Sure, they're using their desktop computers, but everyone else is pretty much using their phone.
[00:13:45] Host: I'm curious. You mentioned SEO real briefly. Is there something or anything we should be doing different with all the AI agents out there now for SEO, or is it kind of the same Best practices.
[00:13:57] Guest: It's a lot. So a lot of the same best practices in terms of reputation. You want other people linking to you, but it makes it even more important that the content that you write and create is structured in ways that make sense, that the user experience around it are structured in ways that make sense, because the AI crawlers that are accessing your site are learning that content the same way that or, well, similar to how a real person might be consuming it. And so if your content's confusing, if they can't find the answer, they're going to ignore it, just like a real person.
[00:14:31] Host: Yeah, makes sense. A lot of things have happened and I still talk about the pandemic a lot because I was in a critical point in my career where that changed everything. Now we have AI and all these things have happened in five years, basically these two huge things. What do you think has been.
How has the focus on digital experience changed in the past five years from your lens?
[00:14:53] Guest: I think a lot of web professionals in higher ed especially don't really know what to do, if we're honest. I think a lot of them, they don't know what to do. I think with AI tools, it's a lot of hype. It's a lot of companies promising solutions that may not actually be solutions. It's a lot of untested theoretical stuff. Right. And so if you're willing to dump the money into being a guinea pig for it, which I think higher ed has to be tricked into doing that, and it's actually pretty easy to trick higher ed into doing that. Not that I'm tricking higher in doing that, but we're not offering any AI stuff right now, but we're trying to help people understand the landscape of the tools and where AI can actually apply and be helpful in what people do, what our higher ed web pros do. And I'm honestly extremely. I'm not a skeptic. I'm very much a critic of AI. I think AI will do a lot of good for us, but I think we're applying it in the wrong places. And I think that whenever you're taking AI and trying to put it in place of a real human human that interfaces with another real human, you're making a bad decision. Because the humanity that we have, person to person, you know, admissions counselor to prospective student or whatever, that's the only differentiating feature we have in higher ed. Like, we all offer the same thing. Our brands all say the same thing. Our marketing all says the same thing. That human touch is the only thing that is a differentiator. And so if you're replacing that with AI bots or AI, I mean, not even agents, because agents aren't really supposed to be interfacing with people. But if you're, if you're putting AI in that place, you're making yourself even more generic. Because especially if you haven't trained your own model or you haven't trained your own rag, like you're just using a generic thing that everyone else is using and even making your brand worse, more watered down.
[00:16:47] Host: Five years ago, chatbots were the big thing.
[00:16:50] Guest: Yeah.
[00:16:50] Host: And even some of them were kind of labeled as AI. And we thought this was kind of amazing. Everyone scrambling in a chatbot.
[00:16:55] Guest: Yeah.
[00:16:56] Host: And that's kind of what you're talking about, I think now, right. Is like that level of like. Yeah, it's not very.
[00:17:01] Guest: Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it. And so, Jeff, you have some search background to you as well, like site search technology, stuff. Like, you know that site search and chatbots in similar ways are only as good as the structured data that's on the back end. If you're like content strategy and information architecture and organizational stuff is bad, the search helps a little bit, but then reaches its full potential. Whereas if your content is structured well and your information architecture is sound and your UX is on point, search has way more possibility to do good. And it's the same thing with those chatbots, because if you're training chatbots on garbage data and training it on really bad organizational structures, that's all it knows. And the AIs that we use today are sure a little bit more advanced, but it's all the same machine learning. It's a little bit better at predictive text generation than we. Than we were four years ago, five years ago, and getting better all the time. But it's not real artificial intelligence. We don't have quantum computing at a large level yet. And so real AI is not on the horizon for several years.
[00:18:07] Host: Yeah. And I've had this same flavor of conversation with many different people, and it always seems to be coming back to we need to do a full content audit. Because we're kind of the victims of our own success from a decade plus ago where we built all these CMSs that we could build web pages faster. And now we're like, oh, we built web pages faster and we have too many of them and we can't keep up because we're not a corporation where we have a handful of publishers, we have hundreds of publishers. Creating this content.
[00:18:36] Guest: Yeah. And you know, to your point, like, we gave ourselves these tools that made us faster but didn't take many of us anyway, didn't take a minute to figure out what the governance structure was supposed to be. And there has to be some governance structure in that. And higher ed websites since their founding are just dumping grounds for all of the information that we possibly have without any, without much thought, at least to who the audiences are, how the audiences ingest that content. Are you confusing them with information that's not for them? Are you making them lost in paths that don't make any sense? And that's.
Yeah, I think full content audit should happen across most of the industry. But I also think there's a level of cultural thinking that has to be switched to. The website is not for the university, it's for the prospective student, it's for the parent, it's for the person that's seeking a college degree or seeking that community. But we seem to be introspective as an industry. The egos get in the way. We think our content is important, but it doesn't matter if they're not reading it and they don't care about it.
[00:19:41] Host: You know, it's almost like I heard someone talking about, like, if you've been on that first date where all the person does talk about themselves, you're like, hey, we can do this and this and this for you. We need to learn. Like, hey, what are, hey, what are. Ask you some questions. What are your problems? What are you looking for?
[00:19:55] Guest: Well, and we've got 20 plus years of data that tells us what prospective students are looking for. We already know what those are. And like, those might change a little bit over the years, but not enough to change the approach. Like, they want to know, do you have a program that they're looking for? And if you can answer yes, cool. They want to then know, can I afford it? Like, am I going to be able to actually do this? And if you can answer yes, then they'll engage with your brand, then they will listen to all the stuff you want to tell them, but answer their questions first.
[00:20:25] Host: So I'm curious. We've already kind of dove into the AI part of it and I don't think we're getting out of it now. I just. Once I'm in it, I'm in it because I just want to. I love your. You kind of have this cautious approach, I would call it right now. And I'm thinking my prediction is that 2025 is going to be the Year where some universities discover agentic AI, it's already kind of there in some industries. And like the models, I mean, this is fairly recent where it's pretty much possible. And what I mean is just that type of artificial intelligence that allows these systems to act autonomously on your behalf and take actions and have constant human intervention. And so I want to paint this picture, see if you think this is good or think it's possible in that a student, sure, they want that personal touch, but they come to school and there's not enough people to help them. So they have their agent, which is Samantha, who knows all their classes, that knows that he hasn't logged into Blackboard in a week, knows that you like basketball, knows what your calendar is and suggests things for you, and is your helper. Do you think we're close to that? Do you think that's a good thing? Trying to paint the other side? Like maybe it's okay to have to have that?
[00:21:35] Guest: Yeah. So from an internal perspective, I doubt we're close to it. And I say that for a couple of reasons. I think one, I haven't seen enough data that shows the personal assistant model of, of AI is really has that much traction yet. So I think we have a couple years before just that framework and concept gets kind of adopted. I also question whether that's the right process. I think like agentic AI is really compelling, but not in a chat interface. And I don't think that people want to sit and just chat with something all the time to give answers. I don't think that conversational thing is one the most efficient way of knowing what is coming next and what we need to do. And I think the speed of response affects a lot of things. I think there are a lot of UX friction points within that that non UX people don't really get. Like, they don't, they don't see that part of it. At the same time, I think agentic AI from a lot of different standpoints is what needs to happen in higher ed. From an operational standpoint, I think we're too aggressive thinking that AI is the product and AI is not the product. It's the thing that enables the products that we're doing. But we want to, we want to put it out in front. We want everyone to see it where, like if you could deploy AI agents in the background of your web operations or your, your marketing operations, to go out and do that competitor analysis on a monthly basis and look at all of your analytics and come back with fully formed reports and Give you insights on what you should be doing from a web perspective, that's really interesting. And if you can run that against a rag database and maybe a finely tuned model that you already have, maybe it can even like look at what your strategic plan is and make sure that all the things that you're doing are on goal for your strategic plan and make those recommendations to you, you. But we're not doing anything there on the administrative operational side and we're going to have to because of the challenges coming in 2025 to higher ed budgets are being cut. Like I don't think the front end staff that interact with people is where we should be cutting employees. I think it should be the backend people probably doing more of the operational stuff. Because if you give a CFO tons of more data that AI agents are running in the background on all the data that you have campus wide, they can make better decisions with staffing, better decisions with software purchasing, better decisions from that end. If we take the student experience right like you were talking about, we put in place all these early warning systems and things from a student affairs side of things and none of them really work because well, sometimes they work a little bit. But like we still want to address the student experience. So like how do you fix that digital experience for students? If you had a FERPA compliant model and you weren't just tossing stuff to Anthropic or OpenAI all the time, you could keep everything kind of contained on your own servers. You could have LLMs that know everything about the student process across your entire school and make recommendations and find that early warning stuff. But higher ed hasn't thought that far. We're just custom gpting stuff like it's training wheels. It's training wheels.
[00:24:41] Host: Yeah, the tools are out there now. I think this is pretty much, I think I would call it almost a no brainer for enrollment counselors and advisors to be able to something to summarize the data for them. For the student they've never met that's walking into their office in five minutes because they have a million appointments like, okay, great, real quick. If that's happening now, you have to implement these tools. But yeah, you're right, I prefer that.
[00:25:07] Guest: To the AI phone agent that's going to pick up and have a stuttered conversation with a prospective student. To me that indicates, I know, cool, it looks cool, et cetera. But to me that indicates you don't actually care about that person. And I think that there's a point where that prospective student is going to feel that as well.
[00:25:25] Host: I think the next step will be kind of your, your menu. You need to choose how you want to interact because you break up a good point. Like what. How is that going to be embodied? I personally don't like voice. I'm behind. I know a younger generation likes voice interaction. I don't like that. Will it be a, like an avatar that looks like very human? Because we're getting there. Will it be just a chat text? Will it be. You can kind of choose and that might be able to help some people, you know, if they can interact the way they want.
[00:25:50] Guest: But yeah, I'm like from a global perspective on AI, I'm really interested in what the next interface actually is for it because I'm just still not convinced that chat and audio is the most efficient way for a human to interact with that stuff. Like, I know it's like lowest barrier to entry for a lot of people, but at some point I think there has to be a breakthrough in the actual interface that we're using to interact with those, those models and with those agents.
[00:26:19] Host: Yeah. Are there any tools specifically now you, you've seen work well in higher ed? Some new cutting edge tools, AI driven or not?
[00:26:26] Guest: No, I think we're all doing the same stuff. Honestly, I wish there were more breakthroughs and I think there are a lot of products that are doing good for the institutions that are implementing them. But I think the bar is so low that it's hard to really say like is this doing an objectively good job or is it just marginally increasing the productivity and the output and the success of, of what these schools are doing? Right. Because like, you know, like you were saying four or five years ago, tossing a chatbot on your website, like cool. People thought that's a real cool thing to do. And we've had live chat forever. Like AI Chatbot's fine. Like they did something, but it was really trying to bridge bad UX and bad IA practices.
[00:27:04] Host: I like that you brought up search because I think that's often a starting point at a lot of schools. Whatever they're doing with their, they're going through a web redesign. You should tackle search. You might still be on the Google free search. There's ways to enhance that. But you know, there's companies that are building AI into their product and what you'll realize is that yeah, you need to optimize your search, but it still comes down to your content because.
[00:27:26] Guest: Right.
[00:27:26] Host: All these tools can get better and we need to parse the content based on Look, I'm just looking for a major, but I'm getting all the administrative results mixed in with all the academic results. We need to fix that. But at the same time we're getting AI hammering us with all these other like, okay, here's an AI summary and then here's the results. It comes down to really the structure of the content, as you were, you were talking about.
[00:27:46] Guest: Yeah, it really does. And I think it's, it's interesting that once you get into how AI works, apart from the, the sort of magic that we all get with Chat, GPT or Claude or whatever, there's a lot of like manual work that goes into the back end of getting these things set up in a way that work really, really well. And if you don't know the technical side of it, you think it's magic, right? You look at it and you think like, like, whoa, this just like answered my questions. Like, well, someone took a bunch of the content and they chunked it up and then they translated it and they put it in a vector database. And then someone to make it good need to go back and look at that and make sure that some of that stuff was good. And like, it needs to be constantly kind of fine tuned. And it's a big process. It's a lot of work and a lot of data, a lot of person hours and a lot of energy and a lot of, you know, electricity energy. Like, there's just a lot of stuff that goes into it to make it feel magical.
[00:28:38] Host: It's funny because they're so far behind in search in a way, and once they're seen some sort of AI tool that's like, ooh, this great shiny object that looks really awesome. But to make that step is so daunting. They're like, right, they're afraid. They're afraid of that and they should be because they realize, I think, like, the chance of it getting wrong because their content's a mess. So at least there's, there's an awareness though. But, but there's so much curiosity too. I want to ask you if you could change one thing about how higher ed is approaching, like, go into the digital marketing space, what would be one thing you would change for Higher Ed?
[00:29:11] Guest: I like that question because there are a lot of things that I would change, but I, I think it kind of always boils down to where we put our focus and like, it's a, it's definitely a complicated, layered issue that involves a lot of people and like I said earlier, a lot of egos and A lot of power plays and a lot of politics. You know, anyone's been in higher ed more than a year understands how complicated that side of it is. But I think it really comes down to who we focus on. Like, it's. It's remembering what marketing is for. And marketing isn't just screaming into the void, especially in a relational industry like we have. Right. You have to remember who that other person is on the other side of the computer, who that other person is that's searching the thing, and that they are a real person and a real person that comes with real baggage at that moment from their life, from whatever circumstances happen that day. They're real people that come with struggles, with challenges, with different needs. And if we're just kind of screaming out taglines and hoping someone's gonna resonate with that, we're not being smart about focusing on them. Right. We're focusing on us. We have that internal kind of egotistical drive to just talk about us, like you were saying earlier. So that's the one thing I think it's always starting a new marketing project, whether it's a campaign or a web redesign or a content strategy project or whatever, by looking at that other person saying, okay, who are they and how. How we meet their needs, and then building something that matches how they respond, how they process information and how they think.
[00:30:43] Host: Yeah, well, that's. That's great advice. I'm going to close it out with that and say we'll leave some links to get a hold of Joel in the show notes. And it was really great having on the show, Jeff. Thank you.
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