[00:00:00] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Content's what you put in a sofa. You know, a novel is what you write with your blood, basically when you're, when you're up all night at a screen. But let's call it content for a moment. In a world where content is available to everybody, my son's friends who are 16 can come through the house and in a few clicks, a clod. They're developing content, production, resources, same thing. They're available to everyone. The industry, the entertainment industry, North America is struggling to figure this out. Right now. In a world where there's so much abundance, it's not content that will have the value. It's the ability to curate what we should be watching and more to the point, what we should be making.
[00:00:44] Jeff Dillon: Welcome to another episode of the Signal. I've spent my career on the institution side of higher ed. And the gap between what a campus can teach and what an industry actually needs is a hard one to close. My guest today has spent the last decade closing it in one of the most demanding industries there is. Jeffrey Stepakov has a 40 year career in entertainment. He wrote for the Wonder Years in Dawson's Creek, wrote Disney's Tarzan, and has over 1 million books in print in 20 languages.
He also taught film and TV writing at Kennesaw State for eight years. In 2015, he founded the Georgia Film Academy, a first of its kind workforce program spanning 30 institutions in the University of System of Georgia and serving 2500 students a year. During his seven years there, film production spending in the state grew from $2 billion to 4.4 billion. Today he is president and co founder of Trilith Institute and CEO of Content Technology Talent South. His newest program, Semester at Trilith, drops college students into North America's largest purpose built studio for 15 weeks and 15 transferable credits.
Jeffrey, welcome to the Signal. Great to have you today.
[00:02:05] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Thank you, Jeff. It's great to be here.
[00:02:07] Jeff Dillon: So over your career, you've been doing all sorts of things. You've walked into TVs, writers rooms, studios, university systems, offices. Which of those places is the hardest to read the first time you were in it?
[00:02:24] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Which of those places are the hardest to read? Well, before I just jump in, I want you to define what you mean by read.
[00:02:30] Jeff Dillon: Read the room. Like who are these personalities I'm studying with? How are they going to take my message? What are the differences between these different industries you've worked in?
[00:02:40] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, I'm running 40 years worth of a lot of different gigs which have a common thread through it, which I hope we get through my head, Jeff, and I think your viewership will appreciate this.
You know what the hardest room to read is? It's the classroom I'm thinking about walking into. You know, frankly, my classroom at Kennesaw State University, where I taught for a while. And one of the things I love so much about teaching is how, in my experience, your students will really hold your feet to the fire. And I value that.
That's my two cents about it.
[00:03:12] Jeff Dillon: So I think what's interesting about your career is that you haven't. You haven't just moved between different rooms, you've really moved between different definitions of success. And in higher ed, there are a few signals of professional success more established than earning tenure. You had that security, and then you chose to walk away from it for something that didn't really have a good. There wasn't really a solid plan yet. I think you were at Kennesaw State. That's the thing a lot of academics, I think, spend an entire career chasing.
You were there, and you walked away from it to start the Georgia Film Academy. What was the conversation you had with yourself before you made that. That move?
[00:03:51] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, it's challenging to answer that succinctly because you need a little bit of backstory, so I'm going to provide it first. Let's appreciate that, for what it's worth, when I, indeed, if you will, stepped away to leave the tenured teaching position at the university, technically, where I went was the Board of Regents, right? I was based at the Board of Regents downtown, which, for your listeners who don't know, that's the governing body of the University System of Georgia. So, technically speaking, I did actually keep my tenure. I just moved my position from Kennesaw State to the governing body. But obviously, I very much changed what I was doing. So why would I do something like that? I mean, I'd have to begin when I was 10 years old and my mother was taking me to go see movies at Phipps Plaza, which is an area where there's movie theaters not far from where I grew up in North Atlanta.
And I was watching motion pictures and thinking, I want to do this. And I would go home and I would sit in front of an old IBM typewriter in my basement and try to write. So I won't give you the whole narrative right now. I will just give you, if you will, the elevator pitch. And that is all my life, Jeff, Whether I knew it instinctively or whether I've been intentional about it. I'm a writer, and ultimately, I've become a teacher of Writer, an educator of writers. And you could expand that perhaps, and say, an advocate for those who create story, which is another way to think about how we create intellectual properties and stories and the writing work that we do. And so to be specific now, when I left that role at Kennesaw State, what I did at the Georgia Film Academy was something that I'd been thinking about intentionally for quite a while and something I was thinking about in the back of my head for decades. So there's another conversation, perhaps that. Another podcast to have about why we do the things we do and is there a. A purpose behind it. But this was a purpose driven move for me, and I'll pause there.
[00:05:42] Jeff Dillon: The scale of what you've built really hits me. I spent years inside university systems, at NAU and at Sacramento State, and I know that even when everyone agrees on a goal, getting the different departments or campuses to agree on how to. How to get there can be really hard.
So when I hear 30 institutions participating in one consortium, you know, I think, how'd you pull that off? The Georgia film Academy pulled 30 institutions into one consortium. I think them aligned on the curriculum.
[00:06:13] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, I really appreciate you getting it. So, you know, again, to take a step back, if you really think about what's so special about the Georgia Film Academy, it's the spirit of partnership. But before we talk about the institutions, which, to your point, really has been. Was the most challenging part, think about what we did in Georgia, which is a, you know, generally a red Republican right to work state. We built a consortium with the universities and technical colleges, which I'll get to in a minute. But first, with our labor unions. We're very powerful labor unions for film production here in Georgia. With our state leadership, with our production leadership that was coming in from California, we had to persuade Disney, we had to persuade Fox, we had to persuade Universal that we were an organization who they could trust not just to teach film and television, but to teach the trade of making film and television. And then the universities, that's another conversation. Imagine, we love you
[email protected] and we want you to be part of what we're doing. But your tenured Professors who have PhDs in film are outstanding at teaching film history. But when it comes to teaching the trades that we need here in our great state, certainly in 2015, 2016, 2017, you don't have those folks. So we want you to sign up with our consortium, we want you to register your students, and then we want you to send those students to an off site Location where we'll be charging a tuition which we can get into and we'll be doing our own teaching. And you'll be part of a consortium, you know, indeed, with 28, 29 other institutions.
If I was going to be blunt with you, I don't know why I wouldn't be. In the end, when I left the Georgia Film Academy to go on to build the above the line program, which we're doing now at the Trillet Institute, we had, I think it was, it was 27 or 28 institutions. We put, gosh, 1600 Georgians into union covered craft positions and we'd had about 16,000 Georgians go through the program. But when we started it in the fall of 2015, they wanted to kill me, they being the university leadership. When I went in with my speech about how come join a consortium. And frankly, I think if I knew more about the true ins and outs of higher education, certainly at the level I was working at when I first started, I might have been a little bit less fearless. But that's an overview of what we did, and I hope I'm emphasizing that in the end, this program has been very successful.
[00:08:37] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, Getting the institutions, 30 institutions aligned on the curriculum is impressive. But. But then you run into another problem that I think anyone who's worked in higher ed knows can get complicated very quickly, and that's credit. We talk about creating more flexible pathways for students, but it's not flexible if the credits don't follow them. And this model really depends on making that work. A semester at trilith gives one student 15 credits that then have to travel back to whatever institution they came from.
[00:09:09] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Sure.
[00:09:10] Jeff Dillon: Correct me if I'm wrong here, but credit portability is one of the most stubborn problems in higher ed, technically and politically. How are you solving that?
[00:09:17] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, the technically part I think is pretty doable. It's the politically part that we ought to be writing books about. Jeff. That's the interesting part. And I'm, and I'm kind of joking around with your listenership to some degree, but, you know, if I may, we all should really be thinking about the future of higher education and what we're trying to accomplish and where does, if you will, workforce and experiential education play into that? How are we all going to work together?
And if I may, I think both the Georgia Film Academy and now the Trilleth Institute are really models for how we do this. And we've been fighting the good fight to get this done, specifically pulling our friends in academic institutions into rooms and Saying we need help, we need to do this together. Now, I'll be specific, what we're doing at the institute with regard to what you're asking. Credit portability, notably, we learned how to do that at the Georgia Film Academy and it was not easy. It was helpful to be based at the Board of Regents where we could utilize those resources.
But in the end, we had to build, with help and support from our friends at Saks, a let's call it an inner consortium where the Georgia Film Academy itself was an entity that provided the resources and the teaching and the professional education and access to internships, but the actual academics was managed by a consortium of the higher education institutions, represented by provosts and deans and sometimes presidents. And by the way, this isn't just universities. This is and was technical colleges, USG institutions, private institutions, all working together.
So to answer you specifically, we created a responsible consortium that was SACS compliant and those institutions were responsible for the credit transferring, were responsible for the instructors of record, et cetera. So now at the Trilith Institute today, which we're talking for the record, in the fall of 2026, mid to late August of 2026, we have an R1 institution, that's Clemson, that is on board as the, say, the lead institution right now or in some ways the engine under the hood. So when you take classes at the Trilith Institute, which for clarity is the above the line piece now of the industry, meaning the Georgia Film Academy was crew based, grip, electric lighting, those trades, and now we're teaching writers, directors, filmmakers, intellectual property creators. We can get to more of that in a minute, the curriculum. But in terms of the academics in the administration of that, Clemson is the responsible R1 party. So regardless of what school you come from, Clemson is the SACS responsible institution that deals with accrediting. And lastly, it's really as simple as semester at SEA or program like that where we send our students off to SEA from various institutions, and I think it's Colorado State that's the accrediting body. So this is what we're doing now, this kind of consortium.
[00:12:17] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, and solving the credit problem is really where a pretty innovative idea has to survive. The mechanics of higher ed. You can build this incredible student experience, but if the registrar can't make it work academically and administratively, it doesn't really scale. So your comparison to study abroad, I like that. Because institutions already understand that model. You're essentially asking them to apply that thinking to an industry experience.
When you're talking to a registrar, what do they need to see before they'll sign off on something like this.
[00:12:51] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, they need to work with the accrediting institution, in this case with Clemson. So we really work with our friends at the institution to work directly with the other schools, if you will, that are coming on board. Once we have an R1 working with us, it's really proven to be fairly seamless. The politics of the consortium is another conversation. But in terms of the mechanics, and you're right to cut to the chase and talk about the semester abroad model because essentially that is what we're doing to that point. There's tremendous precedent for it. You'd be surprised how well the institutions understand this when we talk in that language to really have a, hopefully a productive and blunt conversation. We don't find a lot of problems with the credit transfer. It's really the conversations that you would imagine, which are departments and various institutions concerned about losing their students, concerns about losing their resources. And so the way that we deal with that is by simply speaking the truth and talking about a rising tide floating all boats. We are not looking, looking to usurp courses that exist at our partner institutions. To the contrary, imagine if you're a dean at any number of higher education institutions and someone comes to you and says, how would you like a film school? How would you like access to Trilis Studios, which is the largest soundstage complex in North America? There's 34 sound stages, major productions are coming through. All these resources there and it's yours and it costs you nothing. Simply send your students, you'll get credit and you can build this into your program. I mean, we think it's a no brainer. We do spend a lot of time building trust and building partnerships because in the end, whether we're talking about higher education or any kind of business endeavor, that kind of trust is key. But the program really works. To cut to the chase, there's another
[00:14:40] Jeff Dillon: practical challenge I think extends beyond film programs. Higher ed is being asked to prepare students on increasingly sophisticated technology.
But the procurement and the budgeting cycles aren't exactly designed for technology that changes every 18 months. At some point you have to kind of wonder whether owning all the infrastructure even makes sense anymore. So I think film education has this equipment problem.
There's virtual production stages and that capital is out of reach for a lot of institutions and it's obsolete by the time procurement clears it. Like, does the future of these programs look less like buying gear and more like buying access?
[00:15:22] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Jeff, you've thrown me a softball. I mean, this is, this is what we are doing and to be really direct, why would we not be doing this? On what planet is it efficient for any institution, a state institution, or even a private institution in this environment to go spend donor dollars on building a brick and mortar film school? And this is before we even talk about finding the faculty that can teach in that environment.
When we have an industry that is developing its technologies at a pace that's been unimaginable for most of us, why not affiliate with North America's largest soundstage complex that on one hand is professionally doing this. Right. You mentioned the volume stage. We work with Stage 22 at Trilith, which is one of the largest loose sound volume stages, rather, in the country.
Instead of trying to build that on your campus, why not simply send your students for a semester, let them train with us, and then let them come back to your campus and finish their degree? So we like to think of the Trilliff Institute as America's film school. A new kind of education, A new kind of film school, and quite frankly, a new kind of education.
We really should talk about how artificial intelligence plays into this world. And what do you want to teach students to make when information is abundant and available to everyone, not to mention production resources?
[00:16:40] Jeff Dillon: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because that's right where I want to go is, you know, the question of whether of what institutions should own versus access gets really more interesting when the tech starts changing the skills we're really prepping students for. Oh, yeah, And I've spent a lot of time talking with higher ed leaders about AI, and there's still this tendency to. To focus on what we need to add to the curriculum. And I think the harder question is, you know, what no longer deserves the same amount of time. So you've said AI is really a tool and will never replace the human heart. The tool's getting very good, very fast. If an academic leader calls you tomorrow and wants to build a media program from scratch, what would you tell them? To stop teaching?
[00:17:22] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, first, thank you for referencing my quote about the human heart. I really appreciate that very much. And, you know, I do want to take a moment here and emphasize, Jeff, I wake up every day and think about this stuff, as does my team. And I want you to reflect on what that means. You know, we have academic backgrounds. We also have deep and, frankly, very unique professional backgrounds. Right. So we are not based at the Trillet Institute. We are not based at a university.
We are based on the, say, the third time at North America's largest Soundstage complex. Well, what does that mean?
We not only think about these questions, but we're living and breathing it. And to that end, we hope we're providing relevant, industry specific and education specific solutions.
Here's my opening take on really what we're talking about here.
In a world where. And this is coming from someone who's built a life as a writer, right? In a world where content, and I'm not a fan of that word and so I use it intentionally here. By the way, anybody who's ever sat and wrote a script or written a novel, ask if they're writing content. Content's what you put in a sofa. You know, a novel is what you write with your blood, basically, when you're up all night at a screen. But let's call it content for a moment. In a world where content is available to everybody, my son's friends who are 16 can come through the house and in a few clicks of Claude, they're developing content.
Production resources, same thing. They're available to everyone. The industry, the entertainment industry in North America is struggling to figure this out right now. In a world where there's so much abundance, it's not content that will have the value. It's the ability to curate what we should be watching and more to the point, what we should be making. We increasingly believe in our world at the Trilith Institute, that taste, which is a word we're talking about more and more taste, what deserves being made, what should we focus on is not only going to be what we should be teaching. How do you have taste, how do you make decisions, how do you have analytical thinking, but this is really from our perspective, from an industry perspective, where the great value is headed. So really, to answer you and I'll be brief here, we can unpack it if you want. What we should be teaching, along with trade and along with craft, what we really should be teaching is how do you have the human knowledge, the human, the human heart, as we talked about earlier. But how do you develop the taste to discern what is relevant? What do people want to watch? And here's the really interesting part. What do I, as a student, as a writer, what do I have to say that's irrelevant to all of this? So this is how we are increasingly thinking about it. Now, I can unpack all that specifically, but this is a game changer for how we educate.
[00:20:09] Jeff Dillon: It's really boiling down to storytelling. The last couple of conferences I've been to, those are popular sessions. People talk about how they tell their stories, how they formalized it.
Your answer gets us to a much bigger question about, I think, the role of the university itself.
[00:20:23] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Yes.
[00:20:24] Jeff Dillon: If industry can provide the technology, the working professionals, and an environment that it's closer to what students will encounter after graduation, then we have to ask what's the value the institution uniquely brings to that equation? So I want to push on this a little bit.
[00:20:39] Jeffrey Stepakoff: I love it.
[00:20:40] Jeff Dillon: If a working studio can train a student better than a campus can and the credit gets granted through a partner institution anyway, what's the university still providing that justifies the tuition?
[00:20:50] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Well, I think that is the grand question. Let's riff on it. But I mean, really. And I'm, you know, I just want to remind your viewership that I spent nine years in a tenured role, and I love it, and I love the platform and I really love my friendships in the university. I miss them, too, and I miss my students. But the question you just asked is one that whether you like it or not, and I have friends that still have tenure that don't like it, and I have friends that do. We need to be real and we need to ask that question, and we need to get on board and be part of the solution. So I don't know how much time we have to try to address it, but I think it's a really, really relevant question. What should we be teaching? So here's my two cents in a nutshell. To mix metaphors. I'm giving a lecture in a few hours to 70 students. I have 45 minutes. What am I going to talk about? I'm talking about story structure. It's the only relevant thing in terms of craft I can talk about.
But really, towards the end of it, these are high school students. A lot of what I'm going to talk about is what do you have to say? So here's the basic structure. This is what Aristotle was doing. This is what Robert McKee writes about. If you're teaching in a film school, this is the stuff you're teaching. Inciting incident, rising complications, et cetera. All the stuff we learn in writers room is great. I can actually teach you that stuff in a weekend. But what do you have to say? Who are you as a person? Do you know what critical thinking means? Are you doing it? What are you watching on television? What are you reading? And to get to the core of it, who are you as a person? And if I may, this is what Trilith. Not just the institute, which we run, but Trilith, the studio, the town, the institute, the foundation. This is What Trilith is really all about when we talk about being a place for the storymakers who are inspired the world. Jeff, A lot of what we're thinking about is when people live better lives, they tell better stories. And so gone is the model that I grew up in that I sent my students at Kennesaw in, where I'm sending you to Hollywood to go work in a Starbucks and make your way and maybe get into a writer's room if CAA decides that you belong in that room. How about a world where you have access through your own computer, you can create through your own computer. And now what we should be teaching our students really is about who are you as a whole person and what do you have to say? Oh, by the way, here's some crap.
[00:23:00] Jeff Dillon: I think we also, we have to question who higher ed considers qualified to teach it. And this is something I've seen institutions struggle with for years. The person with the deepest, most current industry expertise isn't always the person who fits neatly into the traditional faculty credentialing model. Your program puts that tension right out in the open. Most of your instructors are working professionals with active credits, not tenure track faculty.
Higher ed has spent decades building credentialed systems that would disqualify a lot of them. On paper, is that system protecting quality or protecting itself?
[00:23:36] Jeffrey Stepakoff: You're asking if the system that we're running is protecting quality?
[00:23:38] Jeff Dillon: Yeah. Yes, exactly.
[00:23:40] Jeffrey Stepakoff: We think that not only is the system that we are advancing protecting quality, but I mean, again, let's speak honestly here. We think it's the future of education. And if I may, with respect to all of us, are we really still having this conversation? I mean, you know, seriously, look at the world around us. Look at how fast it was 2023, I believe, when ChatGPT4 came out. Look at how much has changed just in these few years. How much is academia really still? Is this even a relevant question anymore? I think, pick a metaphor. The genie's out of the bottle. I think the question is, what can traditional, if you will, higher education do today to truly be not just relevant, but to bring value? And I think we can be clear on some of those things. And how do we partner with other kinds of models to really embrace what education looks like? Imagine where we're going to be in five years, let alone 10. And so we think that a world where we are partnered with industry, indeed we're part of industry, where we're not trying to replace higher education, we're trying to support it and bring a piece of the experiential part of work that higher education traditionally doesn't do. And we're bringing value by really tens of millions of dollars worth of resources that the institutions don't have to participate in. How do you not pay attention to it? And so why are we doing this? To advance the economic opportunity for all of us.
[00:25:04] Jeff Dillon: Well, let's, let's dig into that. The economic opportunity. Potential higher ed loves to talk about workforce impact.
[00:25:10] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Yeah.
[00:25:11] Jeff Dillon: But proving that connection is much harder, especially when public dollars and policymakers are involved. Georgia gives you a pretty remarkable case study because the industry was growing at the same time you were building this talent pipeline. I think production spending in Georgia went from 2 billion to 4.4 billion while you were running the film academy. How much of that can you attribute to the talent pipeline and how do you measure it in a way that a legislature actually believes?
[00:25:39] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Yeah, all great questions, and I'll try to be brief here. So one, when we talk about economic impact and credit hours, we should be measuring these things. We should all hold ourselves accountable. I think it's ridiculous to just train some students and say, oh, they're going to do great and send them out. We need to have these metrics partly so we can learn ourselves and course correct if necessary. The Georgia film production business, which I could talk about for several podcasts, is unprecedented in terms of its economic growth. I'll give it 60 seconds. Why is it unprecedented and why was it so successful?
Three core drivers, obviously. Our film tax credit, our private sector supported infrastructure. I think there's 17 major soundstage complexes, 3 to 4 million square feet of sound stages, more than anywhere, I think, in the country. And then notably in 2015, Governor Neal noticed we didn't have enough Georgians to do all this work. So we created the below the line Georgia Film Academy. We built a workforce. The real story here, Jeff, to go back, what we talked about earlier in this conversation is a story of partnership, and Georgia killed it. However, even in 2015, I was giving speeches to anybody who had listened. I don't think it's a Rotary club in Georgia. I didn't give this spiel at, guys, we are building a film factory for Hollywood. And that's great right now, but if anything changes, and it will, because it always does. You know, writer strikes, actor strikes, distribution models. I didn't even think about AI at the time.
These studio, these sound stages are going to be great places to park boats. What should we do? Do we just want to be in the business, which is what we're Talking about economic impact. Do we just want to be in the business of making other people's movies? We want to be a factory? Or do we actually want to be a legitimate industry? Because if we do the business, the entertainment business in North America runs on story, intellectual property. Story. And who creates those? Writers. I taught screenwriting at Kennesaw State.
What was I doing with my writers? Can you imagine, Professor Stepikoff? I want to work in film and television. Here's my incredible spec script. What do I do? Here's the name of an agent. Go to Hollywood. We were sending our job creators to la.
So really what we are now doing at the Trilith Institute is nothing short of building a new North American hub for the entertainment industry, period, full stop. Jeff, you might use more direct language and say we're building a new Hollywood, but I think it's more than that. We're really building a new economic hub based on story. And just to unpack that a little bit more, it's not just film and television anymore. It's for. I'm holding up my mobile phone here. It's for stories. Not content, but stories delivered on our cell phones. It's supporting the so called creator economy. We're all following what's happening right now with independent film movies like Obsession, which, by the way, we've always had films like this. We had Blair Witch Project.
So we at the Trillet Institute are leaning into building a new North American film industry using the resources that have been built during the production era. I'm talking about the sound stages and the vendor support services and the crew base that we built, et cetera. And now we're training our Georgians and providing access to people who have stories. And we're retaining that talent through investment in motion pictures and television shows. Jeff, I squint and I see in five years a new hub that looks like what Grant tinker did at MTM in the 1970s when he created this kind of Shangri La for writers. I see a world where writers are living and growing and living their best lives. And I don't know, Jeff, maybe they're thinking about who they are and what they have to say and you know that thing we call taste. What kind of stories do I want to tell you? And maybe people are coming in from all around the country and they're not just going to Hollywood anymore to tell their stories and to make their stories, et cetera, et cetera. So do I think this has economic impact? We can talk about the numbers if you like. I think it's Ernst and Young that tells us that entertainment and media is about a $3 trillion a year business.
So George, the numbers you're talking about previously from Georgia, 4.1 to 4.4 in direct spend. That's nice, but we're looking at a multi trillion dollar business and it's growing. The production industry has slowed in North America, but globally it's exploding. So we can unpack the numbers some more, but this is what we're thinking about.
[00:29:56] Jeff Dillon: Supporting Stories Jeffrey, we could talk for another hour here, but I'm going to just thank you for this fascinating conversation and appreciate what you're doing. You're really challenging some of the assumptions higher ed has about where learning happens. And so we will include links to Jeffrey's LinkedIn and the trilith Institute in the show notes and thanks everyone for listening to the Signal. And thank you again, Jeffrey. It was a pleasure seeing you.
[00:30:22] Jeffrey Stepakoff: Thank you, Jeff. Lots of fun.
[00:30:25] Jeff Dillon: That's a wrap of this episode of the Signal. If today's conversation sparked a new idea or challenged your thinking, that's exactly the point. This show is about cutting through the noise and helping you see what's actually shaping higher ed right now. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you found this valuable, leave us a quick review. It helps more higher ed leaders find the Signal. For deeper edtech insights, news and trends delivered monthly, subscribe to the Signal monthly
[email protected] thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
